Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692743)

It must have worked out fine because that was the year I got those patches a few weeks later. ;) I said exactly what I wanted to say, all those spots are irrelevant to me. They do not mean anything because it is not hard to figure out which is the dead ball spot and compare that to the first touching spot we are going to use. I guess unless you have no field awareness or game awareness this might be difficult. I even learned a long time ago to figure out the first down spot without having to look at the sticks. If I can do that it is not hard to decide what spot to use. I know I am not alone in that at all, because officials greater than me taught me to do that.

I asked a person on my crew tonight that also worked a State Final with me and is the rules guy on our crew. We had a game tonight because of the Jewish Holiday and this was talked about in our pregame. He often will get into rules discussions with us and give his opinion. And when our crew chief sends out emails with rules and situations, he almost always responds and gives a through explanation. So if I was wrong he would tell me that is what he thought. I asked him directly several situations of different first touching spots. I did not tell him about this conversation or the context, I just asked him what would he do and how would you handle it. He did at first say he would mark all those spots, but then when he thought about it, he said, "If I do all of that, I will not have the spot for the end of the kick or the end of the related run that could occur." He even talked briefly about throwing his hat, but then said to me "Why?" Because he realized that they are not going to take the ball at the other spots anyway and the other spots would be more important. I did not direct him in any direction or try to tell him what I would do.

The conversation only took a couple of minutes. BTW he is a college official as well.

Sorry, not taking back a single word. I stand by what I said. And if you did not get it the first time, all those spots are irrelevant to me. There is a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. The furthest most spot for first touching is going to be used and I do not need to bag every single spot. And the vast majority of first touching spots are clearly identifiable. Better yet, I would not have bags for every spot even if I wanted to. I only take three and I have yet to use all three on a single play even with a first touching spots. I stand by what I say, call me wrong but that is what I am going to do. Do you!!!

Peace

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692743)

It must have worked out fine because that was the year I got those patches a few weeks later. ;) I said exactly what I wanted to say, all those spots are irrelevant to me. They do not mean anything because it is not hard to figure out which is the dead ball spot and compare that to the first touching spot we are going to use. I guess unless you have no field awareness or game awareness this might be difficult. I even learned a long time ago to figure out the first down spot without having to look at the sticks. If I can do that it is not hard to decide what spot to use. I know I am not alone in that at all, because officials greater than me taught me to do that.

I asked a person on my crew tonight that also worked a State Final with me and is the rules guy on our crew. We had a game tonight because of the Jewish Holiday and this was talked about in our pregame. He often will get into rules discussions with us and give his opinion. And when our crew chief sends out emails with rules and situations, he almost always responds and gives a through explanation. So if I was wrong he would tell me that is what he thought. I asked him directly several situations of different first touching spots. I did not tell him about this conversation or the context, I just asked him what would he do and how would you handle it. He did at first say he would mark all those spots, but then when he thought about it, he said, "If I do all of that, I will not have the spot for the end of the kick or the end of the related run that could occur." He even talked briefly about throwing his hat, but then said to me "Why?" Because he realized that they are not going to take the ball at the other spots anyway and the other spots would be more important. I did not direct him in any direction or try to tell him what I would do.

The conversation only took a couple of minutes. BTW he is a college official as well.

Sorry, not taking back a single word. I stand by what I said. And if you did not get it the first time, all those spots are irrelevant to me. There is a dead ball spot and a first touching spot. The furthest most spot for first touching is going to be used and I do not need to bag every single spot. And the vast majority of first touching spots are clearly identifiable. Better yet, I would not have bags for every spot even if I wanted to. I only take three and I have yet to use all three on a single play even with a first touching spots. I stand by what I say, call me wrong but that is what I am going to do. Do you!!!

Peace

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 692770)

I'll give him a 9.8 on the landing. It took a while but he figured out how to give the correct answer without sounding like his first answer was wrong. Very adroit.

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 692761)

Thank you. I'll accept this as an admission that you agree the second and subsequent spots could also be spots of first touching and the only one that matters is the one that benefits R the most. That is the only one that truly needs a bean bag or some reference to location.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 692770)

I'll give him a 9.8 on the landing. It took a while but he figured out how to give the correct answer without sounding like his first answer was wrong. Very adroit.

Originally Posted by Coach Jinx (Post 692774)

Yes he made it.


Rut riddle me this?:

In the senerio we have where its touched at the 2 (you throw your bag) then the ball hits another K player at the 8 & then R picks up the ball at the 6 & starts running, & returns it to 80 yards. Are you going to drop a second bag or just remember the spot of the 8 in case they fumble & have to go back to that spot? Or are you just gonna stand at the 8 while the play goes on?

Originally Posted by bisonlj (Post 692761)

Thank you. I'll accept this as an admission that you agree the second and subsequent spots could also be spots of first touching and the only one that matters is the one that benefits R the most. That is the only one that truly needs a bean bag or some reference to location.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692808)

How is this any different from what I said at the beginning?

This is the quote of what I said.



I am trying to figure out what else did I say that was different? Very first response to the question from the OPer (who still has not commented once in this thread).
Peace

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 692279)

Like I said in the previous post, you could have simply said "every time K touches the ball in FED it's referred to as 'first touching'" ... but no ... you had to be you.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692303)

No, because that is not how I understand the rule or how I enforce the rule or explain the rule. Never have and never will. There is a dead ball spot and a spot of first touching. Pick the one that works for the receiving team and move on. I have never heard it explained the way you did until this very thread.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692743)

The furthest most spot for first touching is going to be used and I do not need to bag every single spot. And the vast majority of first touching spots are clearly identifiable.

Originally Posted by Eastshire (Post 692816)

Which I think most of us agree is not only correct (except maybe the bagging bit) but not what you said originally.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692318)

For the record, the spot of first touching would be the 1 (which is the only place you have a bean bag). The dead ball spot would be wherever the kick ended or the play was over (receivers taking the ball and running). The other touches in your case are not relevant unless these are the places the ball is ruled dead. I do not know what others do and actually do not care. But I am bagging the spot of FT with a bean bag and bagging or killing the play where the kick ends if necessary. I do not understand why this is difficult to understand or why the explanation is contentious. And if the receiving team picked up the ball and ran and fumbles (or muffed the ball) you give the ball back to R at the spot of first touching.Peace

Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 692825)

Hmmm...

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692807)

You are better than me right. Then you do not need my answer. Oh, but you are in Joliet tonight. :)

Peace

Originally Posted by Coach Jinx (Post 692847)

I am. I will be in Joliet Sat night.

Anyway Mr. Bigshot help us with your mighty wisdom, you can't because it proves your wrong. Your avoiding the question doesn't make you seem anything but wrong.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 692849)

Why would I go there? I will be south tonight and tomorrow. Have a great weekend. ;)

Peace