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Tue Oct 08, 2002, 05:40am
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Read Closer
I never said it was okay for the coach to do any of the things you mentioned. But apparently, outside of the official's statements, there is not enough to PROVE the allegation. We all know when we put on the stripes that we are going to be targets of abuse, rightly or wrongly. We hope and pray it never rises to the level of physical abuse but we all know, in the back of our minds, that possibility is there.
You want to slam me for not blindly running to join in the support of a boycott because I am also an official. How biased is that???? Should all the coaches blindly accept what the coaches say? So far, the only versions we have is yours and the newspapers. If you want me nopt to comment on things "I know nothing of", then don't post here. Keep it to yourself or to someplace where just you in that area can deal with it. I don't know what you do in real life so maybe you are used to things being black and white. I deal in grays and it seems to the outside "uninformed" observer, there is plenty of gray here. And even if everything the official says is 100% true, it still does not rise to the level to warrant the action that the refs in that area have taken. [Edited by TXMike on Oct 8th, 2002 at 07:30 AM] 
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Tue Oct 08, 2002, 05:59am
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A New Spin
According to today's Chicago Tribune, the 2 coaches have been charged with misdemeanors and both have also gone from the League for the time being.
Maybe the refs will go back on the field now?????? http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/l...210080110oct08,0,4961993.story?coll=chi%2Dnewslocal%2Dhed (You may not be able to see this story unless you register with the Tribune web site)
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Tue Oct 08, 2002, 09:32am
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Response
Fair enough TX. You make some very good points. I have way more info than was presented here. From what you've seen, your opinions make good sense. The reality is that the league has ben forced to make some positive changes and the officials should now return to the field.
On the other hand, I don't uderstand where Telegrahams is coming from, but the story is getting way outta control. What in the heck are we talking about? Block in the back? Nostrils flaring? Assigner's brother? The kid who was accosted is 19. The assigner's brother is 40. The incident took place during a game involving 145lb players. No matter how bad the official the head guy for an entire football program should not have been leading the charge across the field to confront this player. The video shows that at least 3 parents also came rushing out of the stands and onto the field to berate this kid. Maybe you should get the whole story.
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Snrmike
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Tue Oct 08, 2002, 09:16pm
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Re: Wrong hat
Quote:
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Tue Oct 08, 2002, 11:52pm
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Quote:
Good night and good day.
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Wed Oct 09, 2002, 12:15am
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Mr BB Official,
Thank you for your response. It is very satisfying to find officials that are stalwart in their convictions. After noting the number of postings that you have on this particular forum, I can be certain that I will find spirited correspondence from you in the future. I wish you all the very best in all of your future officiating endeavors. Sincerely, tg
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Wed Oct 09, 2002, 02:12pm
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Here is what I see is the problem here and I am totally impartial, and figure the truth probaly lies somewhere in the middle of both sides.
First it is a 29-0 football game. One team is getting their butts kicked, and a coach starts screaming with two minutes left to go. They are not doing a very good job teaching kids how to accept losses very well. Second the coaches came on to the field arguing. Read this toss flags and coach is ejected. According to the official he was screaming obscenities, and the unbiased reporter says video tape show coach being held back by others. I dont care if this 19 old kid was the absolute worst official in the world, this type of behavior was claerly condoned by the league. The article in the paper states there was no written policy dealing with officials... Give me a break! They have never had a coach tossed? Yeah right! they never had problems with fans? Yeah right! It appears to me that if they truly had no written polcies they condone such rantings and ravings and potential bully tactics. Once a coach has been ejected it sold be at least a one game suspension. If the coach made verbal threats it should have been tacked on. (Remember this is the same coach who admitted in press it was ok to give kids dirutectics to los weight) This isnt a guy with a great track record for me! Where I'm at we have a rope around the field, anyone crosses it they are ejected and the police escort them from the game site. Coach is ejected, they turn in their ID badges, they are suspended for a min of 1 game. The league just doesnt have enough guts to deal with this coach and unsportsmanlike behavior. Everybody is talking about it being for the kids. It's not about the kids when coaches are allowed to act this way and get some sort of reprimand. The "assault" as far a criminal statute should be dealt with by the local police officials and prosecutors. Sound like it is. I for one would be consulting an attorney for a civil suit for assault and battery. Assault in civil law only requires an intentional act creating apprehension of fear and the means to carry it out immediately. Screaming and yelling and having to be held back would fall in my definition of assault. Battery just has to be an offensive touching. He bellies up to me even with the slightest bump, I'd say he has committed battery. My guess is that the league officers could be named as well under some sort of negligent supervision/hiring theory. It would defintely get the leagues attention. Maybe that's the way these officials get the attention of the league to correct a problem that has not been addressed in 42 years.
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Wed Oct 09, 2002, 02:28pm
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Suing "the League" is a lot like suing "the Government" in many ways. Who will end up paying? The ones who did wrong? No. When you sue a govenrment all you do if you win is make your fellow citizens pay more in taxes. When you sue a non-profit and win all you do is end up eliminating the non-profit or making the members of the non-profit pay higher dues.
Suing over something like this is going way overboard IMHO. What "amages" will the refs be able to show? Heck they probably get bumped harder during a pick up basketball game or a romantic liaison than what he got bumped (I am not saying the bump was okay, just saying to look at it in perspective).
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Wed Oct 09, 2002, 02:59pm
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Holy Crap!
We actually agree on this point!
The goal is to make the situation better, not worse. No matter what has been reported, there have been several incidents involving officials' abuse throughout the history of this league. This incident wasn't even the worst. However, the league has just recently adopted many measures to deal with situations such as these. It's a step in the right direction. I wonder what kind of message the league's executive board sends to its members when they still keep the "coach" in question involved as the VP of the league, but fires the refs? There are a few articles in the baseball section about how one youth league handles disputes with officiating. It was a very proactive and positive approach to an inherently volatile and competitive environment. It could easily be applied to any youth sport. In short, the chief-official is appointed and has the last say over all disputed rules situations. The example given requires the umpire-in-chief to be on call and available via cell phone. When a dispute arises, if the UIC isn't on-site, they call him/her and ask for a ruling. The UIC's ruling is FINAL. The league's board deals with discipline, the UIC deals with rules. Check it out! There are links to other articles inside this one! http://baseball.officiating.com/x/article/2500
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Snrmike
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Wed Oct 09, 2002, 03:02pm
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The first link is good reading...
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Snrmike
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Thu Oct 10, 2002, 07:42am
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You do not know which Mike has been posting on this board, and I can assure you it's not who you think it is.
You have fallen into the same trap the ADs in this league have- if no physical contact took place, then any coach in that league is free to do, say, and act however he wants to, up to and including telling an official to leave the field instead of obeying that official's instructions. There is no doubt about that part, as the ADs have admitted as much when directly questioned about it. You say diplomacy could have changed this, yet neither side of this equation can claim the high ground of having been completely above board in their approach. How do you defend a group that never, to this day, have spoken to either of the other 2 officials who worked that game? How do you defend a group that only questioned the official claiming he was physically contacted one time, and that with only half of the ADs present? Do you know they (the ADs) are now denying the official ejected the coach from the game, despite his direct statements otherwise? Do you know they believe that the official's behavior, the possibility he said something inflammatory to the coach, and the fact that the other two officials were so terrified over what to do that they did not forfeit the game, as all legitimate reasons for the coach's obnoxious behavior? The ADs in this league are giving that coach a pass- the refuse to punish him appropriately. You can argue whether banning him before his conviction on battery charges is too harsh, but there is no doubt he deserves punishment beyond the token slap on the wrist he has received. Rich, they are going to sell you out just like they've sold out this young man. The coach is only suspended from coaching duties because of a clause in their bylaws requiring it when charges are filed. The ADs have consciously made a decision to NOT remove him as AD for his team, and to NOT remove him from being Vice President of the league. They voted TWICE, even after seeing the video that, while not showing clear evidence EITHER WAY that physical contact occured, clearly shows a coach who had lost control of himself, to do NOTHING to punish him for it. You can make all the noise you want about having some inside information that no one else is privy to, but in reality you are one of the many apologists for this coach's unsportsmanlike behavior, and your attitude is, to most but not all officials I know, a disgrace and something we all fear. But, more power to you and the 15 licensed officials who are going to work in that league. God help you when the next coach is unhappy you aren't helping his team not get beat 29-0.
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Thu Oct 10, 2002, 09:49am
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To Rich Graham
I have this long response drafted to you but I don't know if I should waste the bandwidth sending it to your personal email address. Your arrogance is really beginning to give me a headache.
Bottom line is: You do not know me personally and you have never worked with me. You just became an official recently and have probably never seen me work a game. I work primarily in the IHSAA and in the Prairie Conference in Illinois. I posted a couple of links up there about how we should "fix" this problem. I did this because TXMike (among others) convinced me that I was part of a problem when we should be working towards the solution. I would like to politely request that you start posting in the same fashion. I will no longer respond to any of your posts on this topic unless they have some constructive suggestions on how to prevent this from happening in your league again.
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Snrmike
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Thu Oct 10, 2002, 04:45pm
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Youth Football Assault
I've been officiating for quite some years now. In fact, I'm also an assignment chairman myself. No, not in youth football, in high school football.
First, I believe it goes without saying, videos don't lie. I had the opportunity to view the original tape even before the media. Right off I was convinced we had a bump followed by two pushes when Mr. Trench rushed the field. Furthermore, even without the bump and push his behavior was unpardonable. In either scenario he must be banned from poisoning young people, both literally (lasix) and figuratively. His language alone was appalling not to mention his physical behavior. Also, I know you Mr. Rich Graham. What you're doing by going back and officiating this league before an acceptable resolution is reached is disgusting. Disgusting, but not surprising...as I know you well. Mr. Graham, this is only your third year officiating...much like the young man who was assaulted. You are no better an official then he is...you both are inexperienced and have a great deal to learn. However, the younger official has proven he is NOT a coward, he has integrity and conviction. You, Rich my friend, need to learn from your much younger counterpart. Please add to your posts that you coached in the Palos organization for many years. Also add that your twin brother currently coaches in Palos. Also add in that you are very close friends with Louis Trench having spent many nights at his house eating pizza and drinking refreshments. Leaving this information out certainly destroys your credibility and objectivity, not to mention making issue of any integrity you might possess at large. You've not kept to the script, as they say. You've been caught offering to much erroneous information for having such little contact with the actual players in this event, outside of Mr. Trench. I know ALL the players in this saga...including "the assignment chairman and his brother" as well as Mr. Trench and Mr. Shaper. On the part of the youth league and its "board of directors"...lie and coverup are too weak of words to describe what they've done. But Mr. Graham...the conclusion that 4 of 5 Chicago television outlets, 4 Chicago area newspapers, and millions of viewers have come to is wrong. ONLY YOU and MR. Trench know the truth, right? Mr. Graham, why have you not told in your posts that your dear friend Mr. Trench was forced out of the Crestwood Colts program some 25 years ago? Why did you not mention that an assistant of his ran across the field 3 years ago and punched an opposing coach from Orland Park in the face? Why did you not mention he fed horse steroids (lasix) to minor children risking their kidneys permanently? Why not Mr. Graham. You've tried to personally attack a number of excellent football officials. What's truly sickening is I'm told you don't have the courage to do this in person. You've been posting on "dozens of boards" which leads me to believe you have way too much time on your hands and cannot possibly be a productive member of society. Finally, this weekend the approximately 40 good officials who did this league are meeting. I've been invited as have 9 of my fellow assignment chairmen, both youth and high school. We are all attending the meeting or sending trusted representatives in our place. We all stand united behind the good officials. Please notice you were not invited Mr. Graham, nor was one Jeff Balogh, one Rich Gust or one Johnny Bryant. I know both Mr. Balogh and Mr. Gust, however I've never had the "pleasure" of meeting Mr. Bryant. I think you boys ought to look up the definition of "black ball". Have a nice night. [Edited by An Old Ref on Oct 10th, 2002 at 04:54 PM]
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