Live-ball vs Dead-ball

[mikesears]

NF Rules:
A couple newer guys on my crew have asked me to try to sum up dead-ball fouls vs fouls simultaneous with the snap. I've tried to teach them this principle; If the team can correct it before the snap, then it is a foul simultaneous with the snap. If they cannot correct it or it simulate action at the snap, it is a dead-ball foul.

How would you go about explaining this to new officials?

Your thoughts and ideas are much appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[BktBallRef]

If it's not a foul until the ball is snapped, then it's not a dead ball foul.

[mikesears]

I'd like to point out that these guys work our underclassman games with my crew, not the varsity games.

I guess the best answer I can give them is find out what the offense can and cannot do before the snap.

Here is my list of fouls simultaneous with the snap:

* Illegal participation (Should never have this simultenous with the snap because we should have illegal substitution).
* Illegal formation (6-man line)
* Illegal Motion
* Illegal Shift

What others can you come up with?

Again thanks!

[James Neil]

Here's a cupple more from my list
Illegal procedure (numbering violation)
Failure to properly wear required equipment during down

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by James Neil
Failure to properly wear required equipment during down

Hmmm...is that a foul at the snap?

If he's improperly equipped, we should flag it and whistle it dead before the snap.

[stripes1977]

I use and teach this acronym to help with this.

Dead Ball Fouls fall under F.I.E.L.D.

F - False Start
I - Illegal Snap
E - Encroachment
L - Leaving the field from the wrong side
D - Delay of Game

These are ALWAYS going to be dead ball fouls...things like illegal equipment may or may not be depending on when we see it.

If you can remember these, then you know anything else that happens won't kill the play.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by stripes1977
I use and teach this acronym to help with this.

Dead Ball Fouls fall under F.I.E.L.D.

F - False Start
I - Illegal Snap
E - Encroachment
L - Leaving the field from the wrong side
D - Delay of Game

These are ALWAYS going to be dead ball fouls...things like illegal equipment may or may not be depending on when we see it.

If you can remember these, then you know anything else that happens won't kill the play.

Thanks! I think that is going to help out a lot of new guys.

[Mike Simonds]

I'm going to add a few more: Don't forget these unsportsmanlike conduct penalties that are penalized as dead ball fouls:

1. B's defensive signals are intended to make A encroach, false start or make an illegal snap.

2. And like you said when the ball is about to become live:

a. failure to wear required equipment (unsportsmanlike conduct) and
b. failure to properly wear required equipment(delay of game).

I like to remember that if the player has all his required equipment but is not properly wearing it thats a 5 yarder, but if any of the required equipment is missing thats a 15 yarder.

[James Neil]

We seem to have a little confusion about my statment that “Failure to properly wear required equipment during down” is a foul simultaneous with the snap.
I didn’t say the player was “improperly equipped” Just that he wasn’t wearing his equipment properly. Let’s say that the ready for play has been given and the snap is imminent. You see A-16 calling signals and he has his mouth piece stuck in his face mask. You going to blow the play dead?

[STEVED21]

Absolutely!! That's a dead ball foul. We should NEVER let a play go off in that situation. It's harder to call on the defense because their movement is not restricted. But, if you see a mouthpiece hanging just before the snap. Kill the play.

[Mike Simonds]

Steve, you are correct. How are we going to explain to the coach that we are calling back a touchdown play because his quarterback had his mouthpiece stuck in his facemask? Dead ball foul always. See rule 3-6-2d.

[James Neil]

Well guys I disagree. And here’s why . I posted yesterday and wouldn’t you know it! I saw this very foul happen today during a Pop Warner jamboree. The first flag that was tossed (tossed live ball by the W.H.) was for the QB failing to wear his mouth piece. During this team’s next set of offensive down, the QB came to the line, set under the center and started calling signals. I was working Ump and seen his mouth piece hanging from his mask. I motioned to him to put it in, He did so and the play went off fine, no foul. There are many times a player may not be wearing his equipment properly. but he can always snap his chin strap or pull his pants down over his knee pads at anytime before the snap and be legally wearing his equipment for the down, So my reasoning is that an offensive team may be poised to commit an illegal act, such as a formation foul (only six players on the line, for example) but until the snap occurs, they always have the opportunity to correct this by shifting another player onto the line making the formation legal or calling a time out to regroup. Therefore, you cannot flag it as a dead ball foul. You must wait until the ball is snapped. Hence, it is the snap that causes the formation to become illegal. And since no foul causes the ball to become dead, you must let the play continue to its logical conclusion,

BTW … I just worked 4 scrimmages in the last 28 hours , and drove almost 400 miles to do it . I’m pooped and sore as hell . But you know what? I CANT WAIT UNTIL NEXT WEEK, I WANT MORE SNAPS !!!!

[Mike Simonds]

James, I am still sticking to my guns about killing the play prior to the snap for failure to properly wear equipment. The way it was explained to me is that player safety should not be compromised by allowing the play to run.

However, I agree with you about doing every thing we can to get the players to comply prior to the snap. I like to yell out "mouth pieces and chin straps" while the teams are lining up. Most times they will comply. I don't think I even had an illegal equipment penalty last year or the year before.

Our pop warner jamboree is labor day weekend. I agree with you: the youth leagues can be the most fun and its a great chance to interact with the kids. I always try to work at least 2 or 3 youth games every weekend.

[James Neil]

You know something Mike, I’m writing this post while chewing on a big old piece of crow 8^). After checking 3-6-2d, then being strongly berated by some very senior officials while in a chat class about my stance, I’m seeing the light and now agree with you.
I even called the WH who tossed the flag I mentioned, and he remembers killing the play at the snap. You are completely right about safety being our main focus. I was told that this can usually be handled with some good preventive officiating, and I did the right thing by getting the player to comply with the rule and get his mouth piece in. But if a player can’t or won’t comply, we need to blow the play dead and assess a DOG.
Thanks for having patience with me. I got a long way to go and much to learn. This reminds me that it’s better to keep ones mouth shut and have people think you’re a fool , then to open it and remove all doubt

[Mike Simonds]

Don't worry James! We are all learning. Somebody told me the only stupid question is the one that never gets asked. I think your attitude is great. Plus, I never really understood the equipment rules and how to apply them until this season. So all of these discussions have been extremely valuable to me.