WHAT"S THE CALL?????

[otis3zeb]

So here's the situation!

A has the ball on thier opp. 30 yd. line, halfback gains 5 yds. then fumbles, (beanbag it!) 25 yd. line, as both teams we're fighting for the ball, B facemasks A (15 yarder) at the 20. B ends up with the ball at the 15. Whats the call, where's the enforcement spot, and what are the options you would give to the capts.

My view would be, loose ball foul before possession by B, enforcement spot from the previous spot, which by rule, the beanbag, Right?? Capt. has the option to take result of play, which he would not!, or their ball after penalty, ( which would be half the distance 12 1/2 yd line. Yes No Maybe, Lets hear it guys!!!

Thanks
Tim

[BktBallRef]

A will get the option of keeping the ball, enforcing the penalty from the end of the run, B's 25, 1st & 10 at the 12 1/2.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by otis3zeb
So here's the situation!

A has the ball on thier opp. 30 yd. line, halfback gains 5 yds. then fumbles, (beanbag it!) 25 yd. line, as both teams we're fighting for the ball, B facemasks A (15 yarder) at the 20. B ends up with the ball at the 15. Whats the call, where's the enforcement spot, and what are the options you would give to the capts.

My view would be, loose ball foul before possession by B, enforcement spot from the previous spot, which by rule, the beanbag, Right?? Capt. has the option to take result of play, which he would not!, or their ball after penalty, ( which would be half the distance 12 1/2 yd line. Yes No Maybe, Lets hear it guys!!!

Thanks
Tim

Because you have the correct enforcment, I am not sure if you meant what you said in your post.

This is not enforced from the previous spot. The previous spot is where the ball was last snapped (the B-30). This penalty is enforced from the BASIC spot (where A fumbled and the run ended) and is the B-25.

[fbguy]

What Helps me keep it straight with regards to who gets the ball is - did B get the ball with "clean hands", no fouls. B fouled before the recoverary so A will keep the ball.

[otis3zeb]

Your Right,

That is the only thing I get mixed up on, I have the right call, but not the right terminology. thanks for the input. and what are your guy's mental checklist?? maybe that will help me out too!

Tim

[mikesears]

Originally posted by otis3zeb
Your Right,

That is the only thing I get mixed up on, I have the right call, but not the right terminology. thanks for the input. and what are your guy's mental checklist?? maybe that will help me out too!

Tim

This is something I sent to my football crew to help them understand.

Here is the all-but-one principle again (summarized). All fouls except one are penalized from the basic spot. Fouls commited by the OFFENSE that occur behind the basic spot are penalized from the spot of the foul.


To simplify this, we need to know TWO spots for every penalty we call.
1. The Basic Spot.
2. Spot of the foul.

What is the spot of the foul?
This the location where the foul occurred. We mark this spot with our penalty flags.

What is the Basic Spot?
The basic spot depends upon the action that occurred during the down Here is how you determine the basic spot.

* For fouls that occur simultaneous with the snap, the basic spot is the previous spot (the place where the ball was snapped).
In other words, if a team commits a foul because they failed to correct something they could have corrected before the snap, we have a live-ball foul that is simultaneous with the snap. Fouls that fit this description are illegal shift, illegal motion, illegal formations, etc.

* For all loose-ball PLAYS, the basic spot is the previous spot.
Loose ball plays are any play where there is any loose ball that originates from in or behind the neutral zone except an illegal forward pass. Legal forward passes, kick offs, punts, field goals, illegal kicking (treated as a fumble), fumbles/muffed snaps, and backward passes are all included as a loose ball play if the loose ball originated from behind the neutral zone. This also includes any run or runs that precede these acts. A play with any of the above actions continues to be a loose-ball play until a player secures possession of the ball.

* For running plays, the basic spot is the spot where the run ended. A running play is all other actions that are not covered in a loose ball play. For enforcing penalties remember, a run ends when 1) a player is downed, 2) a runner goes out of bounds, 3) a runner fumbles the ball after being beyond the neutral zone, or 4) a runner throws an illegal forward pass. REMEMBER: JUST BECAUSE THE BALL IS LOOSE DOES NOT MEAN WE AUTOMATICALLY HAVE A LOOSE-BALL PLAY. It is still a running play if an A player fumbles the ball beyond the neutral zone (i.e. after gaining positive yardage). Getting the spot of the fumble beyond the neutral is important and is a proper use of the beanbag.


If I have any mistakes in the above info, I know others here will correct them.

[Mike Simonds]

Otis, you are correct. Enforce penalty from the end of A's run. A's ball at 12 1/2 yard line. First down if this is beyond the line to gain. Repeat down if still behind the line to gain.

On running plays, most live ball fouls by B anywhere on the field are enforced at the end of the run (except for exceptions like fouls that occur simultaneous with the snap, etc.).

For example, lets say in your example that the BJ did not finish counting the defense prior to the snap. He determines B had 12 players participating. This results in a "multiple" foul by B. In your example A's choices would be to decline the penalty (B's ball 1st and 10) or enforce the illegal participation penalty 15 yards from the previous spot (A's ball at the 15 yard line) or enforce the face mask penalty from the end of the run (A's ball at the 12 1/2). In this case A would be better off declining the illegal participation foul and accepting the face mask foul.


[Edited by Mike Simonds on Aug 25th, 2002 at 11:09 PM]

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mike Simonds
In your example A's choices would be to decline the penalty (B's ball 1st and 10) or enforce the illegal participation penalty 15 yards from the previous spot (A's ball at the 15 yard line) or enforce the face mask penalty from the end of the run (A's ball at the 12 1/2).

I have to disagree, Mike. This is penalized under the All But One. Mark off from the basic spot.

9-4-1 is marked off from the previous spot. 9-4-2,3,4 are penalized under All But One.

[mikesears]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I have to disagree, Mike. This is penalized under the All But One. Mark off from the basic spot.

9-4-1 is marked off from the previous spot. 9-4-2,3,4 are penalized under All But One.

I must disagree with your disagreement

Isn't illegal participation where twelve players are in the formation at the snap a foul simultaneous with the snap according to the case book? If it is a foul simultaneous with the snap, then it is enforced from the previous spot if accepted.

It makes sense to penalize this when twelve players are in the formation because how do we determine who wasn't supposed to be on the field and who illegally participated?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mikesears
I must disagree with your disagreement

Isn't illegal participation where twelve players are in the formation at the snap a foul simultaneous with the snap according to the case book? If it is a foul simultaneous with the snap, then it is enforced from the previous spot if accepted.

Sorry Mike x 2, allow me to correct myself. I was looking strictly at the "Official's Study Guide to NFHS Football Rules" which is obviously in error.

9-6-1 is enforced under the All But One.

9-6-4a,b,c & d are enforced from the previous spot since they occur simultaneous with the snap.

The "Guide" had all those enforcements completely backward. I just took a quick look when I saw the play and didn't dig deeper. That'll teach me!

It makes sense to penalize this when twelve players are in the formation because how do we determine who wasn't supposed to be on the field and who illegally participated?

For the defense it wouldn't matter, since the spot of the foul wouldn't matter under the ABO.

Quite honestly, I think the enforcement is written wrong. If I'm on offense, gain 30 yards on a run against you, even though you have 12 men on the field, why shouldn't I get the foul tacked onto the end of the run?


DISCLAIMER
BktBallRef regrets this error, as he always makes every effort to post only accurate interpretations. He regrets any inconvenience this may have caused.

[Mike Simonds]

Its funny but I have also noticed a few inconsistencies between the rule, case, and mechanices books.

I've learned a lot from you guys. Thanks for all the input!

[mikesears]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
DISCLAIMER
BktBallRef regrets this error, as he always makes every effort to post only accurate interpretations. He regrets any inconvenience this may have caused. [/B]

You know what? I'm so used to you being right all the time, I was scared I missed something.

[BktBallRef]

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