RTP or just PF?

[bossman72]

QB throws a pass and gets hit. The hit is almost immediately after the pass is thrown, but it's a hard helmet-to-helmet hit.

Would this be RTP or just a PF? The timing of the hit itself is good - had there been no helmet contact, there would have been no foul.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bossman72

QB throws a pass and gets hit. The hit is almost immediately after the pass is thrown, but it's a hard helmet-to-helmet hit.

Would this be RTP or just a PF? The timing of the hit itself is good - had there been no helmet contact, there would have been no foul.

You've answered your own question. A PF does not become RTP just because the he happens to be a passer.

Flag the helmet contact. What's the basic spot?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by mbyron

You've answered your own question. A PF does not become RTP just because the he happens to be a passer.

Flag the helmet contact. What's the basic spot?

I beg to differ, a PF applied to a player who is a passer is EXACTlY what Roughing the Passer is all about. The entire concept is that a passer, because of the added vulnerability included with passing, is afforded additional protection (Same concept for roughing the kicker, holder or snapper).

Any PF delivered to a player, while satisfying the definition of a "passer"
(NF:2-32-11) should be condidered RTP, so as to include the additional penalties associated with that specific foul. Where the RTP additional sanctions do NOT apply is when the foul is committed either before, or after, the requirements of the player fouled, of being a "passer" are not present.

[With_Two_Flakes]

...and the same rationale would apply under NCAA rules.

Both Rules Ctte's wish to strongly dissuade this type of contact. Adding the 15yds to the end of the play if the pass is caught is how they have chosen to do this. Whilst he is still regarded as the passer, then any PF counts as RTP, not just the late ones.

[Forksref]

I go with RTP in these situations. He is more vulnerable than a runner would be.

If the pass was completed, tack on the 15. If incomplete, enforce from the previous spot. In both cases, automatic first down.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Forksref

I go with RTP in these situations. He is more vulnerable than a runner would be.

This is a mistake if he no longer qualifies as a passer. But I agree that if it's borderline the benefit of the doubt should go toward RTP.

[whitehat]

great call ajmc...RTP

[kdf5]

9-4-4...Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown. No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass.

Call it the way you want but technically the OP is a PF, not roughing.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

9-4-4...Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown. No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass.

Call it the way you want but technically the OP is a PF, not roughing.

Forgive me, but sometimes new, or creative, interpretations related to issues that have long been otherwise established, serve only to confuse.

There are a number of Personal foul penalties described in NF: 9-4 (Personal Conduct). Beyond those fouls NF 9-4, 9-5 and 9-6 provide additional penalty specifically to afford additional protection to certain players who have been recognized as being especially vulnerable to injury while engaging in specific unique activities.

If a player is a "Passer", as defined in Rule 2 (NF: 2-32-11) he is entitled to those additional protections afforded by the additional penalty associated with committing a personal foul, against a passer .

"Technically" weaselwording a foul committed against a "passer", into a lesser offense, is depriving him of the added protection that is deliberately sought by the creation of a rule designed specifically to protect him.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Forgive me, but sometimes new, or creative, interpretations related to issues that have long been otherwise established, serve only to confuse.

There are a number of Personal foul penalties described in NF: 9-4 (Personal Conduct). Beyond those fouls NF 9-4, 9-5 and 9-6 provide additional penalty specifically to afford additional protection to certain players who have been recognized as being especially vulnerable to injury while engaging in specific unique activities.

If a player is a "Passer", as defined in Rule 2 (NF: 2-32-11) he is entitled to those additional protections afforded by the additional penalty associated with committing a personal foul, against a passer .

"Technically" weaselwording a foul committed against a "passer", into a lesser offense, is depriving him of the added protection that is deliberately sought by the creation of a rule designed specifically to protect him.

Technically, what I'm doing is applying the rule as it's written, not making up my own ruling based on some longwinded desire to be right regardless.

Like I said, call it the way you want but if you call an immediate cheap shot on the passer roughing then you are wrong. If you want an arbiter, check the Redding Guide.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Technically, what I'm doing is applying the rule as it's written, not making up my own ruling based on some longwinded desire to be right regardless.

Like I said, call it the way you want but if you call an immediate cheap shot on the passer roughing then you are wrong. If you want an arbiter, check the Redding Guide.

I'm not looking for an arbiter, kdf5, I'd be perfectly satisfied if you can explain where I'm wrong. You seem to be applying this rule, as you think it should be applied, and should therefore be able to explain your arriving at your conclusion. The salient difference between PF and RTF is the additional penalty applied because of the perceived added vulnerability of the Passer.

It seems you are trying to split the hair between "until the pass is complete or until he moves to participate in the play" (NF:2-32-11) and the added admonition, "No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass" (NF:9-4-4), which seem to support each other rather than create a contradiction.

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I'm not looking for an arbiter, kdf5, I'd be perfectly satisfied if you can explain where I'm wrong.

I'm sure you're not looking for an arbiter because he'd tell you you're wrong too. Here's the problem, Al: you're never wrong. I've explained it. You refuse to listen. You'd rather sling insults and type paragraphs of smoke and mirror BS all in an effort to refuse to admit you're wrong. You call it your way, I'll call it mine but at the end of the day, you're wrong.

[Reffing Rev.]

NFHS: What is helmet to helmet contact?

I guess you mean the defender committed spearing or face tackling. Just checking.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bossman72

QB throws a pass and gets hit. The hit is almost immediately after the pass is thrown, but it's a hard helmet-to-helmet hit.

Would this be RTP or just a PF? The timing of the hit itself is good - had there been no helmet contact, there would have been no foul.

CANADIAN RULING:

This is RTP - Spearing. Always has been, always will be. 15+AFD.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

I'm sure you're not looking for an arbiter because he'd tell you you're wrong too. Here's the problem, Al: you're never wrong. I've explained it. You refuse to listen. You'd rather sling insults and type paragraphs of smoke and mirror BS all in an effort to refuse to admit you're wrong. You call it your way, I'll call it mine but at the end of the day, you're wrong.

"You call it your way, I'll call it mine" works perfectly well for me, kdf5. For the record I've been wrong way more times than I'd care to count and thankfully have avoided repeating a lot of those mistakes by listening to advice from others WHO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Believe me, I couldn't care less about your "opinion", unless I can learn from it, so I have no interest in "slinging" anything. Sorry about your aversion to detail, but if you spent a little more time considering those pesky details, your opinions would be a lot more accurate and valuable.

Allow me to give you a hint, nobody (that matters) keeps score about the number of times an opinion is right, or wrong. The object is simply for everyone to avoid being wrong as much as possible. You explained NOTHING, you offered your opinion which was rejected as being inaccurate and petty. If you'd like to explain your reasoning more clearly, patiently and with some of those pesky details to support your conclusion, I'd be happy to consider your input as long as it might help me avoid new mistakes.

Barking that you're right and anything else is wrong, because you said so, just doesn't cut it. If you last long enough, doing this thing we do, you may learn that the more you understand and think you know, only exposes you to how much extra you need to learn and have yet to understand.