Originally Posted by LDUB (Post 630265)

Because the rule changed.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now the rule says not more than 4 backs so there is no need to know how many linemen there are.

Originally Posted by BktBallRef (Post 630275)

And previously, if you had more than 4 backs, what did you know about linmen? You knew how many linemen there were, if 11 men were on the field. So the method of counting backs was just as effective last year as it is this year.

Here endeth the lesson. :)

Originally Posted by whitehat (Post 630223)

What most officials do in my experience is count the backfield players based on the signal (fist punch) of the R and U. My problem with this is that I think it puts to many variables in the equation.
First and foremost I think it takes the terminlas eyes of the line to count in the backfield. Second, it is not a guarantee that the LJ or L will see the fist punch.
A much more conistent way IMO (how I was trained in college) is to, as Jaybird comments, simply have the terminals count the players on the line on their side of the snapper making brief eye contact with each other. If 3 on your side then a touch to the cap bill, if unbalanced one way or other a fist or hand to face. This way, the terminlas can accurately count without diverting their attention to the backfield and without having to rely on the R or U punch and seeing it or not.

If terminlas count 5 in the backfield is their flag for IP (12 players) or illegal formation? they are not sure what they have they just "know" something isn't right" ...another conference, more opportunity for confusion, etc...

Too many times as an R I count 10 players and then I see no flag on the ground. I ask the terminals how many they had on the line, they say they had 4 in the backfield. Granted we have all different levels of experience as officials and the vets usually have fewer problems but it just seems that if we are counting players on the line then we should count players on the line, and not in the backfield. ..its a lot simpler and accurate that way I believe.

Originally Posted by jack015 (Post 630442)

Fifty three years ago I learned that eleven minus four equals seven. That has not changed has it ? :D

Originally Posted by jaybird (Post 630458)

Originally Posted by refbuz (Post 630538)

If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.

Originally Posted by RichMSN (Post 630548)

If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.

Originally Posted by JRutledge (Post 630494)

At the high school level the rules have not changed. If I am working a college game I will worry about their mechanics. Until then, I am counting 4 in the backfield to be legal and 5 or more to be illegal at a high school game. I really do not see the big deal.

Peace

Originally Posted by LDUB (Post 630564)

Counting the backs is the college mechanic because the NCAA rule deals with a maximum number of backs not a minimum number of linemen.

You can count 4 in the backfield, it works most of the time. But eventually the R is going to have the count wrong and there will be 4 backs and 6 linemen. You might go 50+ games without the R counting wrong but it will happen, it is only a matter of time.

Originally Posted by refbuz (Post 630556)

So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.