Counting 7 on the line
 

Just wanting some feedback as to how your crews or associations (if they try to standardize this) have officials (probably wings) count for 7 on the LOS.

Its done different ways by different officials and I have an opinion as to what works best but wanted some feedback on what works for you and why.

We expect LJ to get the offensive player count from the signal of the R. Our L should have his own count. From there we count players in the backfield to figure out how many we have on the line based on both the wings subsequent signals and the number of A players on the field.

Count the backs. If you have 4 or less in the back field, you have 7 on the line. You also have to look at the R/U punch for 11. If they give you the signal for less than 11 and you have 4 in the back field, you probably do not have enough on the line.

That is how I was trained as well.

I believe that with the change in NCAA rules, this is also now the official NCAA and TASO mechanic but I am not sure.

big fan of the NCAA change, I am hoping that it makes its way down to the Federation, along with not bringing out the captains at Halftime.

What most officials do in my experience is count the backfield players based on the signal (fist punch) of the R and U. My problem with this is that I think it puts to many variables in the equation.
First and foremost I think it takes the terminlas eyes of the line to count in the backfield. Second, it is not a guarantee that the LJ or L will see the fist punch.
A much more conistent way IMO (how I was trained in college) is to, as Jaybird comments, simply have the terminals count the players on the line on their side of the snapper making brief eye contact with each other. If 3 on your side then a touch to the cap bill, if unbalanced one way or other a fist or hand to face. This way, the terminlas can accurately count without diverting their attention to the backfield and without having to rely on the R or U punch and seeing it or not.

If terminlas count 5 in the backfield is their flag for IP (12 players) or illegal formation? they are not sure what they have they just "know" something isn't right" ...another conference, more opportunity for confusion, etc...

Too many times as an R I count 10 players and then I see no flag on the ground. I ask the terminals how many they had on the line, they say they had 4 in the backfield. Granted we have all different levels of experience as officials and the vets usually have fewer problems but it just seems that if we are counting players on the line then we should count players on the line, and not in the backfield. ..its a lot simpler and accurate that way I believe.

Those of you who count backfield players, have you ever tried counting as suggested on both sides of snapper...

Anyway, this is my .02 cents worth
thanks for your feedback.

Get the signal from the R/U. Count the backs. Simple.

It's never presented a problem.

Doesn't the NCAA now do it the same ? 'Nuff said.

I didn't think there was another way.

Peace

Our accepted mechanic for now, (this battle gets fought regularly, to the point I've not-so jokingly threatened to move to BJ) is to count your side of the snapper and then signal fist straight out to the opposite wing if balanced, and if unbalanced, the fist held against the shoulder (like the IS signal). We used to flash 4 or 2 fingers to your partner on unbalanced but most of us determined that in a lot of circumstances, you really can't see it without really peering.

Our senior HL insists that he counts 7 across each and very time and that we should too. In our association, LJ/BJ count and signal defense. HL has no count responsibilty so I try to count A and then catch R/U's signal to confirm. If I have 4 in the backfield, we're all good.

The method whitehat describes is the mechanic used by all NCAA officials I've talked to or seen post.

Because they changed the rule. Counting 3 on each side of the snapper is even simpler and doesn't have the problems of having 4 in the backfield but 8 or 6 on the line.

You only have to count 3 players not 4. You don't have to rely on the other wing official to determine if any players you are counting are on the line. Then you confirm that the other official has 3 on his side of the snapper which is no harder than getting the count from the referee and umpire.

Overall the system is easier and you actually know how many lineman there are.

If your system is better, then why did they change the mechanic? :rolleyes:

Because the rule changed.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Now the rule says not more than 4 backs so there is no need to know how many linemen there are.

And previously, if you had more than 4 backs, what did you know about linmen? You knew how many linemen there were, if 11 men were on the field. So the method of counting backs was just as effective last year as it is this year.

Here endeth the lesson. :)

Several conferences (Big XII, MWC, C-USA, Southland, LSC, etc.) just changed this year as a result of the rule change which allows a play to be legally run with only 6 on the LOS when they only have 10 on the field. It is a dumb rule that has fostered a dumb mechanic.

Yes, I understand how it works. In the end it can create problems. Counting 3 on your side of the snapper fixes the problems. Whitehat explained it earlier.

I have always counted the backfield and never had an issues with missing something on the LOS. When I first heard about the mechanic of counting linemen I thought they were joking. When I've tried to count the lineman, I have a hard time seeing how many players they are because they tend to blend together. Counting backs seems much easier.

In Tennessee, we count the linemen on our side of the snapper and signal to each other.

3 linemen: Fist at shoulder level.
2 linemen: Two fingers at chest.
4 linemen: Hand to face.

If your count plus the other wing's count is equal to or greater than 6, there are enough men on the line. If not, illegal formation. Both wings should have a flag.

We count 3 on each side of the center and hold our signal until the snap. If we have illegal formation both reach for their flags and throw them at the snap. Seems to work well, as long as the guy you are working with can count to 3

Fifty three years ago I learned that eleven minus four equals seven. That has not changed has it ? :D

At the high school level the rules have not changed. If I am working a college game I will worry about their mechanics. Until then, I am counting 4 in the backfield to be legal and 5 or more to be illegal at a high school game. I really do not see the big deal.

Peace

If part of your pre-snap routine is looking for a "punch" from the R, then there's nothing wrong with counting the backs.

But, the problem with just counting the backfield is when the R "punches" just to punch without really count the players. Your counting the backs thinking that there are 11, but there are really 10 on the field. You can still have 4 backs, and still have an illegal formation.

What do you guys, who count backs, do if the U is flashing that he has 10, and the R is punching 11?

I know that if I work the wing, I'm not taking any chances that the R or the U haven't miscounted.

If I punch, it means we have 11. That should be good enough for my wings. We're one crew out there.

So you've NEVER miscounted? As an Umpire, I know that I have. I've also had 12 while my R is punching 11. Things happen and people miscount, I'm not perfect. You punching SHOULD be enough. But there's nothing wrong with the wings counting their linemen as a secondary measure.

For the record, I'm an umpire and I could care less if the wings count the backs or the line because I know that, in HS, if the offense scores a TD that stands with 10 players on the field and 4 backs its not my rear-end that is going to get reamed by the commissioner.

Counting the backs is the college mechanic because the NCAA rule deals with a maximum number of backs not a minimum number of linemen.

You can count 4 in the backfield, it works most of the time. But eventually the R is going to have the count wrong and there will be 4 backs and 6 linemen. You might go 50+ games without the R counting wrong but it will happen, it is only a matter of time.

Of course they could have the count wrong, but the Referee is not the only one counting the offense either in college. That is what the Umpire is for too. I am not talking about a one in a million scenario; I am talking about the best way to get a consistent count. Even the wings have to look around players to count properly. The mechanic should be to cover the most common situation, not the very unusual. And I have not seen many times where the Referee and Umpire could not count. Not only this, they are verifying the count with each other.

Peace

I don't worry about getting reamed by anyone. But we work as crews on the field and one's mistake is everyone's mistake. I find the "I won't get my butt reamed" mentality awful, to be honest.'

On the counting:

We will both (the R and the U) agree on each play -- if not before, than after.

Besides, the LJ is counting the defense on my crew and the L is setting the down box and/or chains. By the time that's done (and the LJ's count is verified with the BJ) it leaves precious little time to count 11 on the offense, too.

I'd rather have the wings not throw a flag if there's 10 if they aren't sure. If we have 10 and I'm sure the wings didn't see our thumbs down signal, we'll talk after the play. If they have 4 backs then, we'll throw a late flag.

Much ado about nothing.

We changed to counting 4 in the backfield this year, and I think it's a bad change.

The rule dictates how many players must be on the LOS. So why not count those players?

Why bring variables into the equation?

I don't work wing often, but I find it hard to count through people. Much easier to count the backfield and look for a punch.

I sense a rule change coming here, too. It makes sense, really.

Having counted the line for so long, we pretty much count them as they're walking to the LOS and as they're getting set. Usually no problems.

I do it this way as well.

Pre-post note: not asking sarcastically here, just trying to understand the theory of counting backfield players instead of counting players on the line:

So, for those of you who count backfield, how do you know what you have? Do you have 12 players on the field or 5 in the backfield? Technically, there is no foul for 5 in the backfield.
You could have 5 in the backfield and 7 on the line. If you have counted the backs only, is your flag for illegal formation or IP?

Or you could have 4 in the backfield and 6 on the line..do you let this go with no flag because you counted 4 in the backfield and since you did not count the line you don't know you have only 6 on the line?

the answer so far has been "If" the R or U or whoever is counting for 11 on A and we see them signal for 11, then we know. Bringing me back to my concern for "too many variables in the equation" and the wings having to look to backfield to count and missing a false start or encrchmnt.

My point is in counting backfield players you have no direct means of actually doing what the rule intends for us to do, that is, determining if a team is legal by having 7 on the line. Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

...still seems to me we are placing too much faith in seeing an accurate and timely punch by the R or U especially with an inexpereinced crew and/or a critical down and distance situation.

Anyway, don't want to beat this into the ground but I am always looking for the best way to manage a game. Maybe counting backfield players is the best, it just has proven too unrealiable in my experience compared to counting 3 on your side of the snapper as a wing.

I realize I may be biased as well as I learned this mechanic (counting 3 on your side of snapper) as a terminal doing college ball and it made a great deal of sense to me.

Thanks for your continued feeback.

1. I too think that NFHS will follow the NCAA rule change: count 4 in the backfield (which is where the advantage is to be had) and play. If A runs a play with 6 + 4, that will be legal.

2. Nobody counts 7 on the line: the wings count how many on their sides, signal, and infer the rest. Either way involves an inference. This count can end up wrong as easily as counting the backfield.

I guess my thinking is, either way that works for you is fine. I just prefer knowing I have to count 4 every time vs some unknown number.

I just don't see any great advantage to trying to count your side of the snapper, looking for a signal from your counterpart, figure out what that signal means, add it to your count to come up with 7, over...
Count 4 backs, look for a signal from the R/U for 11 on A. If there's over 11, not my problem. The R or U will handle it.

My focus goes off the line? Pulease.

This may sound sarcastic, but why is it hard to understand that the Referee and the Umpire both count the offense as their primary counting responsibility? If they count, they signal what they have. The wings in any system I have ever been involved in are not the primary to call illegal substitutions (which you want to call if you get the count in time and not hard for the Referee especially) or illegal participation if the play happens to go off.

Isn't that what the signal is to do? I even as a back judge I signal if a team has less than so if my LJ picks up this, we know what to do when someone runs out on the field. I must be missing something here?

Isn't this was signals are for?

Let us even say you have one of the wings if not both wings counting the offense that is 3 or 4 people counting the offense. I would hope someone has an accurate count. But if you just have two officials counting, then you do some deductive reasoning. If you have 11, you count who is in the back field. You also have a signal with both wings telling each other who closest to them is on or off the line, which helps determine who is actually in the back field. And then on top of all of this, the play is supposed to go off, so you then have to communicate with partners to make sure you had the right number of players on the field or off the line to stick with the penalty. Is this really that hard to understand?

What does experience have to do with this? I can tell you when I was a wing; it was hard to count looking through players to get an accurate count. So if I was even counting, I might not see a player standing next to another player. And the two people that are looking directly at the huddle and who is coming in and out of that huddle on a regular basis (it is not that hard to count from the Referee position from my experience). Then if we use your logic, we have one person counting the defense. Are you not relying too much on one person to get that count correct? :rolleyes:

I am sorry, this is baffling to me. I cannot imagine how your system makes it easier to count or it puts all the responsibility on one official to count the defense which would be a clear advantage if they played with 12. Often times the signals help you communicate to partners so you make sure you are seeing the same things. That is what the R and U are doing. Now if the rule is different at the college level that is fine, but the rules are the same as they have been for a long time at the high school level. And I do not see them changing with many places only have 4 or 5 officials on the field. In a 7 man you have multiple officials on each side of the ball counting. And I am not sure everyone has adopted this mechanic. I am not sure, but something tells me we are making it more complicated than it really needs to be. I have never done this any other way and no one has ever accused me or others if missing a rule.

Peace

No worries JR, don't be baffled. ;) Its just a different philopshy and approach. As R, I really do not care, nor do I mandate, how my crew counts (until either the state or local association makes it a matter of procedure to be followed) as long as we don't miss it on the field.

How can you say the wings have to know how many are on the offense, but you do not expect them to count something? That sounds a little inconsistent to me.

Peace

I don't say that. Officials, regardless of position, are always counting something, a team, a backfield, players on their side of snapper...
I sense you're getting a little too worked up about this whole thing...I hope not. Just a matter of doing things different and trying to generate some discussion as to how offcials do it and why and what they think works best...

as you say, "Peace!"

Why would I be worked up over this? Dude, I am going to do it the way we have done this for years. Remember, you asked the question about how it was accomplished. I did not ask you why you do what you do remember. ;)

Peace

Shalom!:)

While I agree with you, the live and die as a crew has some limitations, and really only applies to kicking an enforcement, not fundamental responsibilities. If your gonna ding the U because the BJ misses a DPI on his key, then I don't want to work for you. If that happened I would EXPECT the BJ, to get an earful from an observer because he wasn't doing his job.

I never even implied that the wings should be counting the offense. I merely, said that there's no reason that the wings can't count players on the LOS on their side of the snapper.

Your crew counts the backs and its great that it works for you.

What I don't get is why a wing would want to worry about a 4th back 40 or so yards away, when you could count 3 players that are 15-20 yards away?

just my $.02.

Who said anything about being worried? The wing across the field is telling you who is on the line with a signal telling you what they have. Then you count. But then again, often times formations are all over the place and it is not like there are not most of the receivers on one side of the field. It not hard to do.

Peace

You can easily miss a lineman in your count, espeicially if one of the outer linemen is "eclipsing" one closer to the center.

It's harder for a back to be "eclipsed" by another back, that's why it's easier to check the R/U punch for 11 and count the backs.

I've seen wings miss a lineman this way because they act as if the encroachment rules applied to them.

We're allowed to take a step or two downfield to get an angle on the line. :)

good point MB! I do that on the rare occasion I can't see a lineman.

...And actually I noticed there were 666 views to this thread and I really don't like that number so just adding one more :D

I don't disagree with you that it is easier counting the backs of the formation. But in HS your looking for 7 on the line, regardless of how many players are on the field for A.

All I am saying is that if you count the line instead of the backs, it removes any remote possibility of kicking a formation foul in HS. Provided that the guy across the field can count to 3.

As a wing I wouldn't have the time and view to count 7men on the LOS. That's why I coun't 4 in the backfield and look for the HR's 11 signal.

Those are too many possibilities. I count 4 after two officials have made a count (and one wing is counting the defense), it much easier to count 4.

Peace

That's part of the simple genius of counting linemen; you dont' have to count 7, just 3 (which is less than 4 BTW). ;)

refbuz: exactly!

A proposal: I assume most wings who now count 3 on their side of the snapper probably began, or at least have tried counting backs.

How many of you who count backs have actually tried counting 3 on your side of the snapper? Why not give it a try in a subvarsity game towards the end of this season, or a few scrimmages next summer and just see what you think. If it aint workin for you, then don't do it...

Hope you all have great games this weekend!

And, as my son always tells me just before heading out to a game: "Dad, don't blow any calls!!"

Why? What's the difference?
You count your line side, look for a signal from the other wing, add the numbers, decide if you have 7 on the line.
I count 4 in the backfield, look for a signal from the R or U (which they have to give anyway), subtract the numbers and decide if I have 7 on the line.

I think everyone should do what they've been trained to do.
Besides, this idea means I'd have to convince the other wing to do the same thing and work out some signal system neither of us knows. And your "simplicity" of only having to count to 3 assumes the line is always balanced which I think is a faulty assumption.
Thanks, but no thanks.

If it mattered at all, one could argue that 2 guys counting the backfield and 2 other guys signaling 11 is more reliable than 1 guy on each side counting the linemen on his side of the snapper.

I suspect that the change at the NCAA level had little to do with the mechanics and more to do with the fact that 5 in the backfield is more of an advantage than 6 on the line. So change the rule and the mechanic to count what matters: they can play with 10 as long as no more than 4 are in the backfield.