I was trying to make a point that someone can say inappropriate things about someone without addressing them.

What?

I get what you're saying about the coaches. I had a guy that I've had about 3 times before with about 3 different teams. He always was a jerk, and continues to be. The problem is that he makes his kids become jerks too. I got tired of the whining and finally flagged him for it this weekend. I summed it up as whining fatigue. The accumulation was just too much. He did calm down when I suggested that a 2nd one he would be watching the rest of the game from the bus. It felt so good I wish that I would've done it years before.....:eek: First varsity flag in 30 years!

When you think of it, there's really only two ways coaches cross the line; most often it's a case of emotions getting the best of them and a "look", a brief comment or an explanation will eliminate the problem and avoid the necessity of a flag. Of course if the emotions got too high, the wrong thing was said or the protest lasted "too long", a flag imight be necessary to put everything back in proper perspective.

Then there's the coach who wants to create a scene, it can be for any number of reasons; he might delude himself into thinking it will make a difference, he's trying to intimidate, coerce or take control or he's trying to show off infront of the players, spectators or whomever.

This is a guy whose not making an emotional mistake and will not be shamed into behaving properly by a look, a comment or even the best explanation. This is a guy who wants to wrest control of the game away from you and he will continue to try, until you make him stop . When you decide you're dealing with one of these characters, the longer you wait to take firm control, the longer the problem will worsen. Attempts to exercise reason, tolerance, benefit of the doubt will only serve to, "feed the troll'.

The secret is learning to tell one type coach from the other as soon as possible.

Dammit, a football game is a scene. Everyone who's willfully in the vicinity is there to intimidate, coerce, or show off to one or more other persons. Yeah, there's a contest in there too somewhere with actual skill involved and score kept, but it's not a judicial proceeding. That's why complaints by officials here about complaints about them by a coach to his players, or in another thread about spectators yelling out fouls with the implication that the covering official missed them, make me think some officials just aren't in the right spirit at a game.

People at a game who have even a tangential relationship to it are all instant experts who have (usually temporary) negative opinions that they might express about everyone around them, because all the other people there are morons -- the coaches on both the home and visiting team, players on both teams, some lady in the 3rd row of the bleachers, and of course the officials. If you're in the audience and you don't tell the people around you vociferously what a moron player/coach/official/trainer/hot dog vendor X is, then you're not engaged enough! If you're on the bench and you don't tell your teammates that the coach is a moron for not putting the bunch of you in, you're not engaged enough. Complaining about a 3rd party, rather than to that 3rd party, is a way of expressing solidarity and spirit. And everyone usually understands this is all role playing, and not to take it personally. Once in the Felt Forum at Madison Sq. Garden at a New York Knights Arena Football game I attended, the crowd even briefly broke out in imitation of a TV commercial series then running for beer, one faction yelling in unison, "Less filling!" and the other, "Tastes great!"

You all recognize this. The difference is that I acknowledge it as good fun, while some of you don't. I don't mind your flagging insults directed at an "adversary" (an opponent or official), which helps show you have control of the game, but when you start overhearing things and getting sensitive about people's appearing more expert than you about your jobs, that's where I have a problem. Even if someone intends you to "overhear", the fact that they make a show of directing the insult not at you I think is sufficient deference to show they respect your formal authority, which I believe is all that should be asked.

Forgive me Robert, for not being quite clear enough. Spectators paid to watch the contest and are the responsibility of game management entirely and are free to behave as however game management requires. Spectators are best totally and completely ignored by game officials, because they are totally irrelevant to our function. Coaches, on the otherhand, like players and officials are actually participants in the contest and have specific duties and responsibilities, included among which, is the requirement to act and behave professionally and in an adult manner.

I wasn't alluding to anyone evaesdropping on sideline conversations or worrying about anyone, "appearing more expert than you about your job" as long as it doesn't undermine my ability to do my job or make a mockery out of the situation, or the game.

If someone is looking for a stage on which to flaunt their individual persona, and wishes to engage a field official as a prop to try and enhance their projection of rules knowledge, they should be doing in from the spectator area, only after they've paid full admission.

That is just wrong. They are not respecting you. You just said that they are saying insults and intending for you to hear it! How is that respecting you:confused:

In reality they are just being a coward and are too afraid to say it to your face.

It is worth noting that Robert is not an official. Evidently our job is to be the verbal punching bags for cowards.

Some coaches know very little about the rules. They think they know them by heart, and there will always be those types of coaches. It's annoying getting into a whizzing contest over this because nothing will convince these types of coaches otherwise. Same as the officials who think after one season of j-high and jv they're ready for at least D-III football. Maybe states should require that every coach take the on-line open book test every year or two so they will spend at least some time in a rule book. I've had guys tell me it's okay to hit someone laying on the ground with the ball even if the whistle hasn't blown. I've had guys tell me only two men can go downfield on punts until the ball is kicked. I've had guys tell me all sorts of stuff over the years and the kids hear the coach and it affects them. And all I can do is make my point with the coach, knowing full well if I'm right or not. If it goes far enough and they won't shut up, my only resort is to bring out the big bad yellow flag. When it gets personal, as it did once in my case, I don't waste any more time with them.

Coach (to his team): Guys, you're going to have to get to work out there, since the officials are robbing us today!

Welpe: [throws flag during dead ball, whistles]

White hat: After the play, USC, defense, 15 yards!

Coach: (to Welpe): Hey, I wasn't talking to you!

Welpe: No problem -- I wasn't talking to you either.

http://www.bellydanceforums.net/images/smilies/yay.gif

White Hat

Curious as to why you had the sideline warning and the USC? Where was your wing?

Parepat,
...bringing us back to the original post....;-)

the sideline warning I initialy threw was early in the game and due to the coach being out of the box (on about the 15 yard line and out on the filed a a yard or so...and yelling...)so the warning flag was to get his attention. I assume the best with coaches, at least initially, and since this was early I had hoped the flag would do the trick. ...later in the game the I threw the USC flag after he loudly protested a call and he just wouldn't let it go.
The wing, sad to say, was a bit inexperienced and perhpas was a little intimidated by the coach IMO.
At R, of course being out in the middle of the field we (I) don't hear everything on the sideline from that distance. I did routinely ask my wing how things were over there and he said he thought things were OK...
My warning and the USC flag were both thrown by me after runs to that coaches sideline and I coulld hear him plainly.

I am enjoying the discussion here. ...:rolleyes:

When comments like, "you're the only one who saw that (or heard that)" are tossed at you, a workable response is, "I'm the only one who needs to".

I agree with your first statement. But my response is: So what? If a coach wants to be a whiner, or indeed, a passive agressive coward, I honestly don't care. I work the wings, and if a coach (or members of his staff) wants to stand behind me and complain about how awful the calls are all day, I just ignore it.

I'm not going to let them intimidate me. At the same time, I'm not going to teach them a lesson or try to hold them accountable (just) for being jerks.

Now, if they're in my face and screaming, invading personal space, that's a little different. But even then, I'll calmly tell him that he needs to step back. If he wishes to have a calm exchange or explanation, fine. But if he only wants to rant and rave, he can do so all game as far as I care--so long as he's not interfering with my ability to do my job.

Not to criticize other officials, but I feel some of them have a little bit of "cowboy" in them. They're a little too quick, in my opinion, to put their authority on display. Or they get in screaming matches with coaches.

As the late, great Patrick Swayze says in the classic "Roadhouse":

"If somebody gets in your face and calls you a *********, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal."

:)

Movie quotes aside, I think RG's distinction is an important one. If a coach has a finger in my face, or if he's screaming for the whole field to hear that the Ref is a piece of ****, then yes, we've got USC. But if he's throwing a hissy fit (behind me) about a CALL being awful, I've got nothing.

Well that depends entirely upon what is actually said doesn't it? I have a pretty high tolerance for what I will put up with and I certainly don't have rabbit ears but I'm not going to ignore something just to avoid confrontation. I'm not trying to teach a coach any kind of lesson but I'm not going to hesitate to flag him when his conduct crosses the line.

Sure, he can throw a fit behind me...to a point. But if he violates one of the three Ps, he's more than likely getting dinged. Questioning my integrity? Pretty much automatic.

I missed this but it is worth responding to.

Conversely, I think there are too many officials that are willing to be doormats.