Some coaches just dont get it!
 

Just some Zebra venting....
Had one of those games last night that between the white lines was hard fought, clean and was decided in OT. However, from the pre-game conference on I could tell the visitingng coach was going to be a problem. He began begging, whining from the get go and I told my wing on his sideline to keep him back and keep a tight reign on him.

I flagged him early with a sidlene warning to get his attention. Seems every snap he began yelling for a flag, although never using any foul language his constant whining and "out of control" sideline decorum just made me shake my head. I did flag him late for an UC foul he very loudly objected to the lack of a flag, wanting a late hit on his side.
Then in OT, his team is on Defense. During a timeout he comes out to the huddle and begins sarcastically whinning and yelling loudly about how "they " have a 12 guys inthe huddle right now, (A only had 11) and "WE are going to flollow the rules and only have 11, UNBELIEVABLE....ya da ya da..." I warned him and almost flagged him again but i held back knowng a 15yd UC penalty in OT would basically decide the game and do so against his kids who were, despite their 4 yr old tantrum throwing coach, playing clean hard football.

The immature coach's team ended up winning the game and all he kept saying was "Unbeleivable" referring to our "incompetent officiating."

I am more than willing to explain and reason with a coach who will do so properly (as the other coach did last night). But this guy, no place for him in a leadership role among teens. I fear there are too many like him out there and they just don't get it!!

Actualy if you tally the fouls his team came out way ahead but nothing would make him happy. All he wanted to do was argue and degrade the officials. I am fairly objective when it comes to critiquing my crew and I thought with a few minor exceptions we did a good solid job.

Bottom line, AD's need to take a hard look at the conduct of their coaches. I know as a parent I would not want that type of coach with his poor attitude, argumentative personality and constant yelling and whining to coach my kid.

thanks for listening..... ;)

Our state allows the crew to subit an incident report to the high school league...if enough crews do this the state will see a pattern and then they can work w/ the school and coach to address the behavior...that's what I'd do.

Why? Did the coach get flagged for USC? Did he get tossed? Nothing to look at.

IMO, you could have taken care of business better.

It's only human to want to avoid taking the game out of the player's hands, but, "You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and sadly a jerk will stay a jerk until he's made to stop being a jerk.

For what it's worth, when dealing with the guy who just won't stop with the smart apple comments, you can take him aside and offer him a choice; coach his team from the sideline and keep his comments to himself, or say whatever he wants, whenever he wants, as loud as he wants from the parking lot.

Of course you have to be willing to absolutely back that up.

Yes, as stated in my post, he did get an UC flag. and for the most part he quieted down a little, yet kept up his little digs and whinning at every opportunity. Just because you don't toss a coach doesn't mean there is "nothing to look at." Mbryon I take it you disagree?

All things considered, in the context of what he did and did not do we (I) handled it appropriatly and would not rethink it now to eject him.

My point is not to rethink what we did but to simply vent a bit that too many coaches just do not model the behavior that teens need to see despite their being (marginally) within the technical rules of conduct. To see coaches whine and beg and constantly complain (none of which in themselves, IMO, warrant an ejection) is not good for the game.

Do any of you toss a coach based strictly on the rule? Go read the rule and then answer honestly and your answer will be "no." Each of us has our thresholds and tolerance levels with coaches. Actually I am one to be fairly quick to flag coaches for UC.

I just wish coaches would keep things in perpsective. It is after all a game!

I am considering an email to the AD about the coaches conduct.

If after you've had a chance to reflect on the steps you took (and didn't take) and are comfortable with your decisions, you were correct. For what it's worth, I'd suggest you let the urge to email the AD pass. There's only a weak 50/50 chance your observations will be appreciated, and a lot less that they'll make any kind of a difference.

As you note, "It is after all a game' and when the game is over, it's over.

Raising this issue with the AD and/or state association would be playoff suicide in our state because coaches primarily decide our fate on their annual vote. Not only could that vote give you a bad vote but he could get his friends in the coaching ranks to give you a bad vote as well (no control over which coaches vote for which crews). Just another reason why our system needs a major overhaul.

the coach ratings are a joke (what do they know about officiating?)...if he doesn't like your calls, you're not going to get a good rating anyway...simply because he's mad.

That must've been something if the things he said to his own team in their own huddle about one or more officials could be UC! Seriously, I have trouble imagining such as flag-worthy. Was he facing you or another official, or was he just talking loud and overheard?

I've always considered things said about an official or an opponent or a bystander but not directed at that person to be a completely legal, and in some circumstances even a good practice. Even if it's totally insincere, it's a way a coach can boost his players' morale -- cursing the officials, a gust of wind, whatever -- by saying they're just unlucky victims and are playing fine. The next day he might look at film and say, "You guys played lousy, the officials were right,...", but at the moment, the right thing to do is to put the blame elsewhere so the players don't get discouraged.

As to his other tantrum throwing, consider the possibility that he's a vicar for his team. He may tell his players that he wants discipline on their part, that they're not to curse the opponents or officials or teammates, and that he will be the "bad guy" who will rant, rave, and draw USC penalties in their stead, saving them from embarrassment. So rather than serving as an example for his team, he's offering himself as an anode or a rodeo clown. I'm not saying that's the case with him, just that it could be the case with some coaches.

It is a team game. The coach is a team member. The team wins or loses, not the players. If a team member deserves a USC foul then he should get a USC foul.

It seems like you ended up deciding the game. If you called the foul like you should have then that team would have lost. You didn't call it and they won.

Robert Goodman is by far the dumbest person here...do you guys see what he wrote? Is he joking or what? I guess he really thinks that people can say whatever they want. I didn't think anyone could ever think that way. Obviously RG does not get it.

Bull. A coach saying things about the officials when he full well knows the officials are within earshot is being a passive aggressive coward. The "Oh I wasn't talking to you" line is garbage.

The huddle is not a sanctuary. Act like a jerk and don't be surprised if you get held accountable. Gaming the officials is not going to win you very many points in my book.

I think he's trying to make a point.

Well, at least we are generating some discussion about coaches conduct. I hope is it is constructive and helpful. Don't want it to digress into something other than that.

Ajmc, thats good advice. I have not considered the matter much more. Had another game today. Varsity back to back Friday night Sat. afternoon.

Oh yes, flagged a coach this afternoon for disagreeing with a DPI call. He came out on the field about 10 yards, and yelled something about horse excrement and so he got a UC flag. I just shake my head and chuckle sometimes.

Ldub...oh nevermind....

I had a guy do this last week. He called a timeout and came out to hold his conference between the hash marks. He started out by addressing me in this passive-aggressive (read: cowardly) manner -- by saying very loudly from his huddle "I've been really nice about it, but the penalty ratio..."

That's as far as he got. I told him to address his players or get off the field and then I turned my back and walked away from him.

Good sportsmanship is expected. Doing what some of these coaches do isn't acceptable and I simply won't tolerate it. They can give me any rating they like, too, it doesn't change how I officiate.

He said "I warned him and almost flagged him again but i held back knowng a 15yd UC penalty in OT would basically decide the game and do so against his kids who were, despite their 4 yr old tantrum throwing coach, playing clean hard football"

So it seems as if he was going to call the foul but didn't want to "basically decide the game" by making the call. Team A would have most likely lost if he called the foul. That means Team B would have most likely won.

So if someone is worried about costing one team the game by calling a game deciding foul isn't he costing the other team the game by not calling it? Why doesn't he just call the fouls and not worry about which team is getting helped or hurt?

I pretty sure I remember reading a similar statement in Referee magazine recently. While I personally think it's a logical fallacy, I understand the sentiment.

Why? I've always considered things said about someone but not directed at that person to be proper decorum, and in some circumstances even a good practice. I don't understand why Robert would want to respond.

Nicely done. ;)

If you're addressing me, then no, I agree. I somehow missed the part of your post where you said you flagged the USC (saw only the sideline warning part).

I agree with the principle of doing what we can to keep coaches and players in the game. As a general rule, the contests are for the participants, and nobody wants an official who throws people out at the drop of a hat.

On the other hand, every league has its well-known bad actors. They've generally been around for a while, and they know how to push buttons to get their way. Until the officials association mans up sufficiently to enforce the rules with these clowns, they will continue to misbehave and be an annoyance for everyone. Sure, passive-aggressive is cowardly; but if we don't deal with it, who's the coward now?

It sounds as if you felt it was a borderline case, and those are always frustrating. Clearly bad behavior, but you feel it didn't warrant an EJ.

In our game last Friday the home team is up big and the gap is still increasing. The D coordinator wants our LJ to call the visitors for encroachment. When he doesn't get the call he says we're a bunch of "dickweeds". Now, I don't care who you are, that's funny!

Coaches are coaches. Some have more class than others but when they cross the line ding 'em, otherwise keep your skin thick.

It's really a shame when these topics turn into, "Some officials just don't get it". Officials express their opinions about relevant issues, which can be helpful and educational, or sometimes not. I would submit the only times the input sinks to the level of "stupid" is when an individual presumes what they do, say or think is the absolute only way to act, speak or think.

At some point we all go through a period (hopefully really brief) when we think we've learned everything and somehow stop leaving an odor behind in the bathroom. For the great majority we quickly realize that's just an illusion and get our heads back out of our dumpers.

Sadly, some seem to linger in their fantasy and actually believe that their opinions are somehow worth more than anyone elses. "Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one and it's just a little different than anyone else's".

This forum works best when we all keep our minds on football, rather than personalities. Either you agree with what someone opines, or you don't. We come from different areas and sometimes do things differently (different, not necessarily better). There's no need for "cheap shots" and nobody worth impressing is impressed by cheap shots, which seem to often originate in the same circles. We all have the all the opportunities to hear really stupid remarks on Friday nights or Saturday afternoons, so all the "bush league" smart aleck nonsense is just....unnecessary.

To those guys who think you know it all, you don't and if you keep doing what we do long enough, you'll mature enough to understand that. Unfortunately, some never find a way to get over that hump, so you really need to work on it.

No, I'd say you've trumped anything, anyone else has done. :(

Constant harassment is grounds for a report in our state. I suggest you do that or find a way to do it if none is readily available.

I almost never have problems with specific complaints, but I never tolerate constant harassment.

Obviously you not able to understand the post I made. I guess you are not as smart as you think you are.

I understand perfectly. You're an @$$, just like I always thought you were. :)

LDUB, You're really trying to make friends, and influence people, aren't you? :confused:

I was trying to make a point that someone can say inappropriate things about someone without addressing them.

What?

I get what you're saying about the coaches. I had a guy that I've had about 3 times before with about 3 different teams. He always was a jerk, and continues to be. The problem is that he makes his kids become jerks too. I got tired of the whining and finally flagged him for it this weekend. I summed it up as whining fatigue. The accumulation was just too much. He did calm down when I suggested that a 2nd one he would be watching the rest of the game from the bus. It felt so good I wish that I would've done it years before.....:eek: First varsity flag in 30 years!

When you think of it, there's really only two ways coaches cross the line; most often it's a case of emotions getting the best of them and a "look", a brief comment or an explanation will eliminate the problem and avoid the necessity of a flag. Of course if the emotions got too high, the wrong thing was said or the protest lasted "too long", a flag imight be necessary to put everything back in proper perspective.

Then there's the coach who wants to create a scene, it can be for any number of reasons; he might delude himself into thinking it will make a difference, he's trying to intimidate, coerce or take control or he's trying to show off infront of the players, spectators or whomever.

This is a guy whose not making an emotional mistake and will not be shamed into behaving properly by a look, a comment or even the best explanation. This is a guy who wants to wrest control of the game away from you and he will continue to try, until you make him stop . When you decide you're dealing with one of these characters, the longer you wait to take firm control, the longer the problem will worsen. Attempts to exercise reason, tolerance, benefit of the doubt will only serve to, "feed the troll'.

The secret is learning to tell one type coach from the other as soon as possible.

Dammit, a football game is a scene. Everyone who's willfully in the vicinity is there to intimidate, coerce, or show off to one or more other persons. Yeah, there's a contest in there too somewhere with actual skill involved and score kept, but it's not a judicial proceeding. That's why complaints by officials here about complaints about them by a coach to his players, or in another thread about spectators yelling out fouls with the implication that the covering official missed them, make me think some officials just aren't in the right spirit at a game.

People at a game who have even a tangential relationship to it are all instant experts who have (usually temporary) negative opinions that they might express about everyone around them, because all the other people there are morons -- the coaches on both the home and visiting team, players on both teams, some lady in the 3rd row of the bleachers, and of course the officials. If you're in the audience and you don't tell the people around you vociferously what a moron player/coach/official/trainer/hot dog vendor X is, then you're not engaged enough! If you're on the bench and you don't tell your teammates that the coach is a moron for not putting the bunch of you in, you're not engaged enough. Complaining about a 3rd party, rather than to that 3rd party, is a way of expressing solidarity and spirit. And everyone usually understands this is all role playing, and not to take it personally. Once in the Felt Forum at Madison Sq. Garden at a New York Knights Arena Football game I attended, the crowd even briefly broke out in imitation of a TV commercial series then running for beer, one faction yelling in unison, "Less filling!" and the other, "Tastes great!"

You all recognize this. The difference is that I acknowledge it as good fun, while some of you don't. I don't mind your flagging insults directed at an "adversary" (an opponent or official), which helps show you have control of the game, but when you start overhearing things and getting sensitive about people's appearing more expert than you about your jobs, that's where I have a problem. Even if someone intends you to "overhear", the fact that they make a show of directing the insult not at you I think is sufficient deference to show they respect your formal authority, which I believe is all that should be asked.

Forgive me Robert, for not being quite clear enough. Spectators paid to watch the contest and are the responsibility of game management entirely and are free to behave as however game management requires. Spectators are best totally and completely ignored by game officials, because they are totally irrelevant to our function. Coaches, on the otherhand, like players and officials are actually participants in the contest and have specific duties and responsibilities, included among which, is the requirement to act and behave professionally and in an adult manner.

I wasn't alluding to anyone evaesdropping on sideline conversations or worrying about anyone, "appearing more expert than you about your job" as long as it doesn't undermine my ability to do my job or make a mockery out of the situation, or the game.

If someone is looking for a stage on which to flaunt their individual persona, and wishes to engage a field official as a prop to try and enhance their projection of rules knowledge, they should be doing in from the spectator area, only after they've paid full admission.

That is just wrong. They are not respecting you. You just said that they are saying insults and intending for you to hear it! How is that respecting you:confused:

In reality they are just being a coward and are too afraid to say it to your face.

It is worth noting that Robert is not an official. Evidently our job is to be the verbal punching bags for cowards.

Some coaches know very little about the rules. They think they know them by heart, and there will always be those types of coaches. It's annoying getting into a whizzing contest over this because nothing will convince these types of coaches otherwise. Same as the officials who think after one season of j-high and jv they're ready for at least D-III football. Maybe states should require that every coach take the on-line open book test every year or two so they will spend at least some time in a rule book. I've had guys tell me it's okay to hit someone laying on the ground with the ball even if the whistle hasn't blown. I've had guys tell me only two men can go downfield on punts until the ball is kicked. I've had guys tell me all sorts of stuff over the years and the kids hear the coach and it affects them. And all I can do is make my point with the coach, knowing full well if I'm right or not. If it goes far enough and they won't shut up, my only resort is to bring out the big bad yellow flag. When it gets personal, as it did once in my case, I don't waste any more time with them.

Coach (to his team): Guys, you're going to have to get to work out there, since the officials are robbing us today!

Welpe: [throws flag during dead ball, whistles]

White hat: After the play, USC, defense, 15 yards!

Coach: (to Welpe): Hey, I wasn't talking to you!

Welpe: No problem -- I wasn't talking to you either.

http://www.bellydanceforums.net/images/smilies/yay.gif

White Hat

Curious as to why you had the sideline warning and the USC? Where was your wing?

Parepat,
...bringing us back to the original post....;-)

the sideline warning I initialy threw was early in the game and due to the coach being out of the box (on about the 15 yard line and out on the filed a a yard or so...and yelling...)so the warning flag was to get his attention. I assume the best with coaches, at least initially, and since this was early I had hoped the flag would do the trick. ...later in the game the I threw the USC flag after he loudly protested a call and he just wouldn't let it go.
The wing, sad to say, was a bit inexperienced and perhpas was a little intimidated by the coach IMO.
At R, of course being out in the middle of the field we (I) don't hear everything on the sideline from that distance. I did routinely ask my wing how things were over there and he said he thought things were OK...
My warning and the USC flag were both thrown by me after runs to that coaches sideline and I coulld hear him plainly.

I am enjoying the discussion here. ...:rolleyes:

When comments like, "you're the only one who saw that (or heard that)" are tossed at you, a workable response is, "I'm the only one who needs to".

I agree with your first statement. But my response is: So what? If a coach wants to be a whiner, or indeed, a passive agressive coward, I honestly don't care. I work the wings, and if a coach (or members of his staff) wants to stand behind me and complain about how awful the calls are all day, I just ignore it.

I'm not going to let them intimidate me. At the same time, I'm not going to teach them a lesson or try to hold them accountable (just) for being jerks.

Now, if they're in my face and screaming, invading personal space, that's a little different. But even then, I'll calmly tell him that he needs to step back. If he wishes to have a calm exchange or explanation, fine. But if he only wants to rant and rave, he can do so all game as far as I care--so long as he's not interfering with my ability to do my job.

Not to criticize other officials, but I feel some of them have a little bit of "cowboy" in them. They're a little too quick, in my opinion, to put their authority on display. Or they get in screaming matches with coaches.

As the late, great Patrick Swayze says in the classic "Roadhouse":

"If somebody gets in your face and calls you a *********, I want you to be nice. Ask him to walk. Be nice. If he won't walk, walk him. But be nice. If you can't walk him, one of the others will help you, and you'll both be nice. I want you to remember that it's a job. It's nothing personal."

:)

Movie quotes aside, I think RG's distinction is an important one. If a coach has a finger in my face, or if he's screaming for the whole field to hear that the Ref is a piece of ****, then yes, we've got USC. But if he's throwing a hissy fit (behind me) about a CALL being awful, I've got nothing.

Well that depends entirely upon what is actually said doesn't it? I have a pretty high tolerance for what I will put up with and I certainly don't have rabbit ears but I'm not going to ignore something just to avoid confrontation. I'm not trying to teach a coach any kind of lesson but I'm not going to hesitate to flag him when his conduct crosses the line.

Sure, he can throw a fit behind me...to a point. But if he violates one of the three Ps, he's more than likely getting dinged. Questioning my integrity? Pretty much automatic.

I missed this but it is worth responding to.

Conversely, I think there are too many officials that are willing to be doormats.

Question for chymechowder
Do you umpire baseball?
Baseball umps seem to put up with a lot more 'in your face' screaming than I would tolerate (I only do football).
It seems the standards for baseball are set quite differently than the standards for football as to how a coach can interact with the officials.

Yup.

And football coaches and players get away with far more than baseball players and coaches do. I flagged a kid for taunting a few weeks ago and my first thought was that in a baseball game (with no intermediate penalty) I would've immediately ejected him. An assistant that drew a 15-yard USC a few weeks earlier got persona "you're horrible" and would've been ejected from a baseball game. No cowboy mentality, just a difference in the expectations and the proper responses of the sports.

Basketball coaches, I think, are the best behaved of all of them. They act up too much, they get a technical (which comes a lot quicker than an USC in football) and get to sit down knowing they can't get another one without getting run.

I do football, baseball, basketball, and agree with Rich about the different sports penalties having a bearing on an officials enforcement of same.
A coaches penalty(T) in basketball can result in points for the opponent. In football, the USC yardage helps the opposing team. But in baseball? There is no penalty that "helps" the opposing team in scoring.

Back to the topic of "overhearing a coach complain about you"- its my opinion, and the majority of others I believe, that if I hear it, it was meant for me. Depends on the situation/context, since Im not LOOKING to penalize, but I also wont let the wrong comment go by...and I'm not going to assume a coach is saying that for ulterior team reasons....

Don't look for opportunities to punish coaches. I agree with that. BUT if the coach says a lot of what has been discussed here you are either a part of the problem or solution. If you allow him to continue with is passive aggressive ways and look the other way you are part of the problem. Bang him. Make it easier on the next crew. Protect your young wing officials. How many officials get tired of hearing the constant whining on the side lines? How many young officials don't come back because of it? Take care of the sideline. Do it early in the game. Don't wait until it is "crunch time". Don't wait until you feel it might affect the out come of the game. Take care of it early. If you do it won't happen later.

ajmc, this post will be added to my .doc file called "Tips for Handling Coaches." I add gems like this whenever I come accross one. So thanks. This will be very helpful to me going forward and applies to both sports I work (football and basketball).

As of now, I'm strictly a basketball guy, and I agree. This will work well for me, I think.

I think this is a good point. b/c baseball umps put up with more screaming, but they also DO more screaming than football umps. not to say that we HS officials should strictly emulate college and pro officials, but you hardly ever see high level football officials "getting into it" with coaches. and there's a reason for it:

right or wrong, football is different and we don't have that same dynamic. if a baseball manager rants from the dugout about how awful a call is, he may well get run for it. but if a football coach throws a nutty ON THE SIDELINE, he gets ignored for the most part.

personally, i think that's the way it should be. I dont think a wing official is being a "doormat" by ignoring this.

I don't scream on a baseball field and I won't go nose to nose with a coach either.

Where do you personally draw the line? I really do hope you don't let a coach say whatever he wants to as long as its behind your back?

Too many officials do. What coaches do in the NFL is not appropriate on a HS field and I know *we* don't tolerate that.

I draw the line at verbal abuse. I guess my point is that I make a big distinction between "complaints" and "abuse."

If a coach were to tell me that I'm a "piece of ****"; or call me an a-hole, or tell an offical to F. off....I'm flagging that right away.

But if he wants to scream about a "horse**** call"; or ***** and moan that the officials dont know what they're doing; or as someone mentioned earlier, cry to his team that it's 16 versus 11 out there....everything like this falls under the category of COMPLAINTS to me.

I was with you until the bold section - you don't get to stand on my sideline scream accusations of crew bias.

I agree. That one gets flagged by me.

Since this discussion has some how wandered into complaining, I can put up with a coach complaining a fair amount. Despite earlier characterizations to the contrary, I'm not some "cowboy" looking to lay down the law.

My original point was that just because something was not said to an official, doesn't mean the coach gets a free pass.

What do you think of these comments coming from the fans, in a game played with 11 and 12 year olds.

"You're playing favourites, ref."

"That's a BS call!"

"You guys are HS."

(FWIW, the call, a horsecollar, was correct.)

Thereis a tremendous difference between spectators and coachs/sideline personnel. The best suggestion I could make about spectators, is TOTALLY IGNORE them and pay no attention to them - They Don't matter.

Coaches, on the other hand, are deserving of our respect and are entitled to the extension of professional curtesy. Emotional outbursts should be excused, where possible, but that does not mean tolerated or accepted. Coaches are REQUIRED to extend professional curtesy as well as they expect it to be offered.

Dealing with my 5 (now grown) children caused many instances of lost composure on my part, I can only imagine the frustration of dealing with 40 children. all at the same time. If somehow I can't ignore an emotional outburst, (which I usually can be very good at) I'll start with "the look", which should leave absolutely no doubt that whatever was said was inappropriate. If that fails, depending on what's been said, I might follow with a "brief" suggestion ("I hear you" or "that's enough") and turning away from further discussion. If that doesn't stop it, I'm not dealing with an emotional outburst anymore.

I'm now dealing with someone who is trying to intimidate me and reduce the standing of my position, which cannot be allowed to be successful.

If a coach (HC or assistant) has decided to embark on a continuing string of smart remarks behind me, at some point I'll pull him aside and quietly give him a choice, he can keep his comments to himself and remain on the sideline doing his job, or he can say whatever he wants, to whomever will listen, in the parking lot. From that point on, it's his decision which way things go.

We each get to draw wherever our "Line" will be, and it should be as obvious as possible so others know exactly where it is. When someone chooses to cross it, they've earned the consequences.

Unfortunately, one community has had a large increase in incidents of sideline fan behavior that includes expletives. Multiple people have said that this season has been bad. Coincidentally, there has been a near 100% changeover in leadership within this group too.

Refereeing 10 year olds my mind can't help wonder about other things, as there is lots of time between plays. I came to the conclusion that if my child was playing on a team like this one, he would be changing to a different team immediately. The extra driving to practices and games are worth it.