Touchback/Safety penalty

[KWH]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.


Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Even if B committs a penalty there, its still a touchback, and the penalty would then be enforced from the 20.

michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

What actually happended in your play is the offense, no longer B, (See 2-43-1 & 2-43-2) actually committed a foul in there own endzone. And since, a player on offense committed a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enfocement is from the spot of the foul, 8-5-2c IS the applicable rule, and, the result of your study group play IS a safety.

Again, read Rules 2-43-1 & 2-43-2 and it should help clear the air.

Oh and michrefdh, that is not just an opinion as you previously suggested,
rather, that IS the correct application of NFHS rulies!

I hope this helps.

[VALJ]

Casebook 10.4.6.B is the closest I can find to this play.

B1 intercepts A's pass in B's EZ, B2 clips A9 at B's 10-yard line after the change of possession. B1 then fumbles in B's EZ and the ball rolls out of the EZ and out of bounds at B's 2 yard line. RULING: The penalty is enforced under the all-but-one principle. The end of the run is the goal line and the basic spot is the 20-yard line. The penalty would be enforced half the distance, fista and 10 got B on the 5 yard line.

It's not quite analagous, since in the casebook play the penalty happened in the field of play, but it reinforces that the foul in this case is enforced as a spot foul under all-but one.

Though actually, I think somebody quoted this rule earlier, and I can't see why this wouldn't apply:

10-5-4: If the offensive team throws an illegal forward pass from its end zone or commits any other foul for which the penalty is accepted and measurement is from on or behind its goal line, it is a safety.

B's become the offensive team by gaining possession of the ball, and committed an illegal forward pass from the EZ. Right?

[michrefdh]

[QUOTE=KWH;618235]michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

[VALJ]

[QUOTE=michrefdh;618254]

Originally Posted by KWH

michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

Not a problem at all, Mich - this is how we improve!

You're correct that - without a penalty - 8-5-3-d is what would apply in this situation. The penalty in any case changes that, though. After B gains possession, if they commit a foul in their own EZ, that penalty (if accepted) will result in a safety. They've committed a foul behind the basic spot (the 20 yard line for a touchback, or the end of the run if the ball is run out of the EZ), and any time a penalty is enforced from a spot in the "offense's" EZ, it's a safety.

Let's change this up just a bit: same play, but after B1 intercepts the ball, B2 commits a hold at the 10 yard line. B1 is tackled in the EZ. B still has a touchback, and would normally get the ball at their 20. However, the penalty at the 10 is behind the basic spot, so the hold is enforced from there. Half the distance from the spot of the foul puts the ball on B's 5 yard line, 1-st and 10 for B.

The key issue when B commits a foul in this situation where a TB would normally apply is "where is the foul"? If the foul is downfield (B's 21 yard line to A's goal line), the penalty is enforced from the basic spot of the 20. If the penalty is committed behind the B20, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul, whether in the field of play or in the EZ.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

Lots of rules apply given that no foul occurred. For example, if A has the ball 1/10 and gains 12 yards, by rule they get a new series. But wait: A1 held during the down at the LOS: now that rule doesn't apply, and we go to the penalty enforcement rule. Everyone knows this.

What's harder to explain is why you don't see that the same principle applies to the rule you keep quoting, and why you seem to think that the rules "conflict." There's no conflict here: one case has no foul and one rule applies; another case has a foul, and a different rule applies.

[KWH]

[QUOTE=michrefdh;618254][QUOTE=KWH;618235]michrefdh-
Perhaps this will help.
In your original study group play, yes, B intercepted the ball in B's endzone, however, the ball did not become dead there, and, because it did not become dead there, 8-5-3d is NOT the applicable rule.

So then, suppose in the situation originally posted, the kid threw the ball up in the air, yes it still went forward, but still landed in the endzone or out of bounds behind the goal line, and therfore is dead in the endzone. Does that affect the ruling at all?

While I fully understand where you ae going, the offense STILL committed a foul, and therefore 8-5-3d is NOT applicable, 8-5-2c and 10-5-4 are the applicable rulings. - Safety
And another situation, B1 intercepts in the endzone, B2 commits a clip in the endzone, but then B1 either downs it in the endzone, or is tackled in the endzone, therefore the ball is dead in the endzone. Does that change anything vs the original situation?

No. The offense still committed a foul in their own end zone, 8-5-3d is not applicable, 8-5-2c and 10-5-4 are the applicable rulings. - Safety

Again, I in these situations, I still see a conflict in rule 8-5 art 3-d "It is a touchback when...d. A forward pass is intercepted in B's endzone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

I understand your point.
Perhaps 8-5-3d could have some additional wording added to the end such as: l...unless 10-5-4 is applicable

P.S. I'm just trying to understand the situation and the application of the rules, and not just endlessly debate.

I fully understand.
However, sometimes in NFHS logic one rule trumps another rule.
For an example, read rule 8-2-1a, b, and c. All of these are examples of how to score a touchdown. However, we all know that if the scoring team fouled prior to scoring they don't get to keep the points even though it does not say that anywhere in Rule 8-2-1.

I hope this makes some sense.

[michrefdh]

KWH

Thanks for the explanations and the discussion.

I am just getting back into working HS football this year after a hiatus of over a decade. So perhaps there have been some interim changes that I'm still trying to catch up with.

Back when I did it before, as I remember it, the force rule was basically that if you weren't responsible for the force putting the ball in the endzone (especially for B) then it couldn't be a safety. Not sure if that was correct back then, or not. I'm still working on the rule books, but the main thing I'm having trouble with is perhaps all the interim yearly changes over the past decade.

Do you know, or is there any source for looking up those past yearly rule changes?

[KWH]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

KWH

Thanks for the explanations and the discussion.

I am just getting back into working HS football this year after a hiatus of over a decade. So perhaps there have been some interim changes that I'm still trying to catch up with.

Back when I did it before, as I remember it, the force rule was basically that if you weren't responsible for the force putting the ball in the endzone (especially for B) then it couldn't be a safety. Not sure if that was correct back then, or not. I'm still working on the rule books, but the main thing I'm having trouble with is perhaps all the interim yearly changes over the past decade.


Do you know, or is there any source for looking up those past yearly rule changes?

michrefdh-

This site gives you a pretty good summary.

NCAA and NFHS Football Rules and Rules Changes Index - Football.Refs.Org

Also, the NFHS Football Handbook has a good review.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by KWH

However, sometimes in NFHS logic one rule trumps another rule.

For an example, read rule 8-2-1a, b, and c. All of these are examples of how to score a touchdown. However, we all know that if the scoring team fouled prior to scoring they don't get to keep the points even though it does not say that anywhere in Rule 8-2-1.

But often the rules have to spell out the order in which things are resolved. For instance, with change of possession before a live ball foul, the CoP is "preserved" in the administration of the penalty. However, when A advances the ball beyond the line to gain before a live ball foul, the penalty choice & enforcement is administered before it is determined whether there's a new series and before setting a new line to gain. So it's not unreasonable to ask that the rules be explicit about safety/touchback and penalties. Actually I think this one is explicit about that, because there's no other way to read the penalty provision specific to that case, but it would be reasonable to ask that the other apparently applicable rule explicitly reference it as an exception.

Robert