Touchback/Safety penalty

[Welpe]

Force is not a factor here because it doesn't matter who put the ball in the endzone. Team B screwed up by committing a foul in the end zone and this foul is enforced under all but one. This foul is the "but one", which is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot. That foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. The spot of the foul in this play is Team B's own endzone and it will be enforced from the endzone, resulting in a safety. Force is not a factor in any of this.

This is the same as if Team B intercepts a pass in their own endzone, and the runner returns the ball to, for example, the B25 but a Team B player holds an A player in the endzone. This is also a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, so it is also enforced from the endzone and is a safety.

[bigjohn]

ART. 3 . . . If the penalty for an illegal forward pass is accepted, measurement
is from the spot of such forward pass. If the offended team declines the distance
penalty, it has the choice of having the down counted at the spot of the illegal
incomplete forward pass or (if the illegal forward pass is caught or intercepted)
of having the ball put in play as determined by the action which followed the
catch.

[Reffing Rev.]

Great discussion...

Our crew of 6 was divided 3-3 on this one. Well actually it was 3-2-1 at first.

The one odd-ball opinion was that the intercepting player abandoned play (much like a scrimmage kick receiver who thinks he signalled fair catch and doesn't run). So he wanted to call it a touchback and then administer a dead ball USC penalty. 1st and 10 at the 10.

3 of us, myself included want to apply that new rule from a couple years ago (I can't remember the number and I don't have any books handy) the one previously quoted that says something along the lines of the basic spot is the 20 when the team in possession commits a foul in the end zone and the opponents are responsible for the force...etc. Now I know that this foul should be enforced from the spot of the foul since it is behind the basic spot. I was however reluctant to call it a safety since the force which propelled the ball into the end zone (not what caused it to become dead there) was the original legal pass. But I am almost convinced that force does not matter in this play since the ball was 'brought' out of the end zone.

The other 2 were safety from the beginning one of them saying, "He's an idiot and deserves to give up 2 points."

I'm still not quite so sure...if it happened tonight I would call it a safety, and look for the police escort.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Great discussion...

Our crew of 6 was divided 3-3 on this one. Well actually it was 3-2-1 at first.

The one odd-ball opinion was that the intercepting player abandoned play (much like a scrimmage kick receiver who thinks he signalled fair catch and doesn't run). So he wanted to call it a touchback and then administer a dead ball USC penalty. 1st and 10 at the 10.

Interesting! He must also be a baseball umpire. So he's saying the player's behavior will be taken constructively as if he had said, "Down." Is this one where the officials huddle and the R says: "It would really simplify things if one of you heard him say `down' before he threw the ball."?

Robert

[KWH]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Interesting! He must also be a baseball umpire. So he's saying the player's behavior will be taken constructively as if he had said, "Down." Is this one where the officials huddle and the R says: "It would really simplify things if one of you heard him say `down' before he threw the ball."?

Robert

Robert-

Perhaps the umpire should yell "PLAY ON"

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by KWH

Robert-

Perhaps the umpire should yell "PLAY ON"

Didn't we have a discussion like that here (or maybe it was in rec.sport.officiating) regarding NCAA rules where a player catches an opponent's kick in R's end zone, and, thinking the ball is dead, tosses it to an official or leaves it on the ground?

Robert

[jaybird]

"Play on" were the magic words used after the clock expired for an untimed down.

[michrefdh]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Force is not a factor here because it doesn't matter who put the ball in the endzone. Team B screwed up by committing a foul in the end zone and this foul is enforced under all but one. This foul is the "but one", which is a foul committed by the offense behind the basic spot. That foul is enforced from the spot of the foul. The spot of the foul in this play is Team B's own endzone and it will be enforced from the endzone, resulting in a safety. Force is not a factor in any of this.

This is the same as if Team B intercepts a pass in their own endzone, and the runner returns the ball to, for example, the B25 but a Team B player holds an A player in the endzone. This is also a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, so it is also enforced from the endzone and is a safety.

OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

[bigjohn]

5. A double foul results only when both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer,
during the same live-ball period or if team possession changed during the down and the foul by
the team in final possession was prior to the change or if there were a change of possession and
the team in final possession accepted the penalty for its opponent’s foul.

[Dale Smith]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

If B declines A’s foul, the play results in a safety 2 points for A and B kicks to A. If B accepts A’s foul, it’s a double foul and we have a do over. A’s ball at the previous spot.
Either way because B fouled they loose.

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

OK, how about this situation.

Same as above, foul by B in the endzone, except that the runner returns the ball to the 25, but the tackler A1 commits a face mask penalty on the tackle.

We have a post change of possession double foul. How is that going to be enforced?

Double foul, replay the down.

10-2-1: It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period in which:
c. There is a change of possession and the team in final possession accepts the penalty for it's opponent's foul at any time during the down.

If B declines the face mask, their penalty is enforced from the EZ, resulting in a safety. They're not going to do that, so they'll accept A's penalty and offset the fouls.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by VALJ

Double foul, replay the down.

10-2-1: It is a double foul if both teams commit fouls, other than unsportsmanlike or nonplayer, during the same live-ball period in which:
c. There is a change of possession and the team in final possession accepts the penalty for it's opponent's foul at any time during the down.

If B declines the face mask, their penalty is enforced from the EZ, resulting in a safety. They're not going to do that, so they'll accept A's penalty and offset the fouls.

Don't be so quick to make B's choice! If they were leading by enough in the 4th period with little time left and A close to B's goal line, they might well be happy to give up the safety and free kick. They might even want to do so regardless of the score and time left.

Robert