Touchback/Safety penalty

[bigjohn]

8.5.1 SITUATION E: A1’s forward pass is intercepted in B’s end zone by B1 who
attempts to advance, but is downed there. B2 clips at B’s 3: (a) during B1’s run,
or (b) after B1 is downed. RULING: It is a touchback in both (a) and (b) and the
basic spot is the succeeding spot. In (a), it is first and 10 for B from B’s 1½-yard
line. In (b), the dead-ball foul will be penalized from B’s 20 resulting in first and
10 from B’s 10-yard line. (8-5-3d; 10-4-4d)

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone; or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.

Still the key is force, the team that intercepted still didn't apply the force that put the ball into the endzone.

mich, I don't think you are reading that correctly.

The part you ahv eunderlined is part of the clause that starts with "or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined...", which is not the case we have here - presumably A will accept the penalty, and the enforcement spot for that penalty is B's, endzone, hence the first clause applies.

[bigjohn]

10.4.4 SITUATION B: A1 throws a pass from B’s 22-yard line. B1 intercepts the
pass in his own end zone and is tackled prior to leaving the end zone. During the
run, B2 holds A2 at B’s 10-yard line. RULING: The basic spot is the 20-yard line.
If the penalty is accepted, it will be enforced from the spot of the foul. B will have
a first and 10 from its own 5-yard line. If the penalty is declined, it will be B’s first
and 10 from B’s 20-yard line.

[VALJ]

Neither casebook play has the foul occuring in the end zone after the COP; they're both in the field of play. The foul in the OP is enforced from the spot of the foul. Since the foul occured in the EZ, I've got a safety.

[bigjohn]

I agree Val, just showing the casebook plays that are close. I think there needs to be at least one casebook play where the foul occurs in the EZ.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone;

Which is exactly what we have here. The rules 10-4-6 and 10-4-7 simply help define the basic spot for very specific plays.

In this situation, Team B is now considered the offense because they are in possession of the ball. The offense committed the foul and it is enforced from the endzone, which is a safety.

[ppaltice]

There is a case that is similar that involves momentum.

CASE 8.5.2, Situation F part (d).

B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.

RULING: In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot resulting in a safety.

So, even though the basic spot is not in the end zone, the foul, which is behind the basic spot is in the end zone resulting in a safety.

I think michrefdh needs to resolve the difference between offense/defense and Team A/B, and the difference between basic spot and spot of penalty enforcement.

[michrefdh]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

There is a case that is similar that involves momentum.

CASE 8.5.2, Situation F part (d).

B1 intercepts on his own 4-yard line and his momentum takes him into B's end zone. (d) B2 holds A1 in the end zone as B1 is downed there.

RULING: In (d), the foul by B2 occurred in the end zone behind the basic spot resulting in a safety.

So, even though the basic spot is not in the end zone, the foul, which is behind the basic spot is in the end zone resulting in a safety.

I think michrefdh needs to resolve the difference between offense/defense and Team A/B, and the difference between basic spot and spot of penalty enforcement.

Still I see a conflict with this rule.

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.

Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."


The example above is intercepted in the field of play. Still no case here involving the fact that the initial force putting the ball in the endzone was A. B whether on defense or now offense, never had possession outside of the endzone and they didn't apply the force, so if the ball becomes dead as above in B's possession, shouldn't it still be a touchback?

[VALJ]

Mich - you're right, the casebook doesn't cover this exactly. But, you've also got a classic all-but-one enforcement here.

10-4, article 6: The basic spot is the 20 yard line for ouls by either team when the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul is responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line of the team in possession, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

All fouls but one are enforced from the basic spot. That one foul is a foul by the offense behind the basic spot, which are enforced from the spot of the foul. That's exactly what we have here, so the foul is enforced from the spot of the illegal forward pass. Since that spot's in the EZ, we've got a safety.

[bigjohn]

ART. 2 . . . It is a safety when:


c. A player on offense commits any foul for which the penalty is accepted and
enforcement is from a spot in his end zone




or throws an illegal forward
pass from his end zone and the penalty is declined in a situation which
leaves him in possession at the spot of the illegal pass and with the ball
having been forced into the end zone by the passing team.


The penalty is not going to be declined so this part doesn't matter. If the penalty is declined it is a Touchback.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by michrefdh

Still I see a conflict with this rule.

8-5 Art 3 d regarding touchbacks.

Art 3 ...It is a touchback when:
d. "A forward pass is intercepted in B's end zone and becomes dead there in B's possession."

This provision is assuming no foul by B after the COP. No foul, touchback. Foul in the endzone, safety. Easy.

[KWH]

Guys-

1) He threw an illegal forward pass because it was, a pass after team possession had changed during a down! 7-5-2a

2) It is a safety because A player on offense comitted a foul for which the penalty is accepted and enforcment is from the endzone. 8-5-2c

3) It is NOT a touchback because A forward pass intercepted in B's end zone DID NOT become dead there in B's possession 8-5-3d

[bigjohn]

So you are saying the coach is right and the WH is wrong?

LOL!!! Blind Hog, I know!

[KWH]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

LOL!!! Blind Hog, I know!

Huh?

[michrefdh]

Hey thanks for the discussion here.

I see the valid points from both opinions, like I said originally, I'm not saying I am right. Its a situation that I think could use a better case evaluation to clarify this specific situation. I still think that the issue of force is a factor, but thanks for the discussion. 4 more weeks!!!!