Psk

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If you're looking for a "silver bullet", I'm not sure one exists. Although, I think your (b) above might be as close to "always" as you can get, but in (a) all depends on what you see and whether you decide the contact was avoidable, significant, deliberate or reasonable.

Nothing nefarious or "silver bullety" about it. I'm merely looking for confirmation of what is being said. The examples given were for a stark visual of what it appeared was being said, that even though the timing of the hit was exactly the same on a passer, some are saying where the hit is made makes it either allowable or a RTP. Although I may myself make such a call, I'm not sure there is any rule support in doing so. Because some coaches do know the rules.
Coach "was your RTP call because the hit was late?"
Me "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head."
Coach "well I can maybe understand a personal foul there, but where in the rules does it say a hit to the head makes it roughing the passer?"
How are you going to answer that?

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Nothing nefarious or "silver bullety" about it. I'm merely looking for confirmation of what is being said. The examples given were for a stark visual of what it appeared was being said, that even though the timing of the hit was exactly the same on a passer, some are saying where the hit is made makes it either allowable or a RTP. Although I may myself make such a call, I'm not sure there is any rule support in doing so. Because some coaches do know the rules.
Coach "was your RTP call because the hit was late?"
Me "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head."
Coach "well I can maybe understand a personal foul there, but where in the rules does it say a hit to the head makes it roughing the passer?"
How are you going to answer that?

Here's where I'm coming from:

9-4-4 . . . Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown.......

9-4-4 indicates it's roughing if he's hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". That's why I asked about the immediate cheap shot. Is that, by rule, RTP? Roughing seems to be really nothing more than a late hit. It makes a big difference in where the penalty is enforced (usually) and if you add an auto first down.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Here's where I'm coming from:

9-4-4 . . . Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown. No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass.

9-4-4 indicates it's roughing if he's hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". That's why I asked about the immediate cheap shot. Is that, by rule, RTP? It makes a big difference in where the penalty is enforced (usually) and if you add an auto first down.

See, that's what I'm asking too. My examples assumed the timing of the hits would not generate a RTP. Instead, they were meant to question the "ruling" by some here that where the hit happens can still generate a RTP which I don't think can be supported by rule. We all know the hit to the head is a RTP in the NFL because we've seen it announced just about every Sunday, but that rule does not exist in NFHS.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Here's where I'm coming from:

9-4-4 . . . Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown.......

9-4-4 indicates it's roughing if he's hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". That's why I asked about the immediate cheap shot. Is that, by rule, RTP? Roughing seems to be really nothing more than a late hit. It makes a big difference in where the penalty is enforced (usually) and if you add an auto first down.

Originally Posted by Mike L

See, that's what I'm asking too. My examples assumed the timing of the hits would not generate a RTP. Instead, they were meant to question the "ruling" by some here that where the hit happens can still generate a RTP which I don't think can be supported by rule. We all know the hit to the head is a RTP in the NFL because we've seen it announced just about every Sunday, but that rule does not exist in NFHS.

It has nothing to do with timing. It doesn't matter if the ball was just released of if the QB is standing there watching the result of his 60-yard pass. He's still a passer until the pass ends. Rule 9-4-4 further clarifies this by saying if the QB is standing still or dropping back he still can't be roughed because he's not involved in the play.

Most teams are lucky to have 1 quarterback, let along a decent backup. Protect him.

An R who I have a lot of respect for once shared this with me -

If you have to think about whether it was pass interference or not, it wasn't.

If you have to think about whether it was roughing or not, it was.

[Mike L]

Oh really? Timing has nothing to do with it? So if the passer has released the ball and a defender is close enough he can't avoid contact it's the same as a defender who takes 2 or 3 or 4 steps to hit him. Really? I guess that whole part of a defender having to make an effort to avoid contact is ignored then. Because timing doesn't matter.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Oh really? Timing has nothing to do with it? So if the passer has released the ball and a defender is close enough he can't avoid contact it's the same as a defender who takes 2 or 3 or 4 steps to hit him. Really? I guess that whole part of a defender having to make an effort to avoid contact is ignored then. Because timing doesn't matter.

You're really talking about the ridiculous now. Yeah, contact can't be avoided it's not a foul. Otherwise, throw the flag.

It is illegal to charge into the passer after the ball is clearly thrown.

9-4-4 further states that "No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass"

Seems pretty clear, if the QB has thrown the ball and is standing there watching he can not be hit until the pass ends or he makes some other move to participate in the play.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Nothing nefarious or "silver bullety" about it. I'm not sure there is any rule support in doing so. Because some coaches do know the rules.
Coach "was your RTP call because the hit was late?"
Me "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head."
Coach "well I can maybe understand a personal foul there, but where in the rules does it say a hit to the head makes it roughing the passer?"
How are you going to answer that?

The problem here is your first answer was simply incomplete. Had your answer been, "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head while he was still a passer", there shouldn't have been any more questions. The other indisputable factor is that the determination of what constitutes late is yours alone to make.

Anybody else is entitled to their opinion, but the judgment is your's alone to make.

For both Roughing the kicker, as well as roughing the passer, the rules clearly place the emphasis, the responsibility to avoid such contact on the defender. The defender is responsible to guage his charge to avoid such contact.

NF: 9.4 "Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into the passer."

NF:9.5 "A defensive player shall neither run into the licker or holder...not block, tackle or charge into the kicker....

Both rules allow for conditions that mitigate the responsibility, but the PRIMARY responsibility to avoid contact rests with the defense, who should completely understand that before initiating their charge.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The problem here is your first answer was simply incomplete. Had your answer been, "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head while he was still a passer", there shouldn't have been any more questions. The other indisputable factor is that the determination of what constitutes late is yours alone to make.

Anybody else is entitled to their opinion, but the judgment is your's alone to make.

For both Roughing the kicker, as well as roughing the passer, the rules clearly place the emphasis, the responsibility to avoid such contact on the defender. The defender is responsible to guage his charge to avoid such contact.

NF: 9.4 "Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into the passer."

NF:9.5 "A defensive player shall neither run into the licker or holder...not block, tackle or charge into the kicker....

Both rules allow for conditions that mitigate the responsibility, but the PRIMARY responsibility to avoid contact rests with the defense, who should completely understand that before initiating their charge.

No, the problem appears to be some people can't read or can't admit they made a mistake.
What does just after release of the ball mean to you? Unless the catch is made immediately after the release I don't know how anyone could reasonably not think the QB is still the passer.
What's even funnier is others who make statements that timing doesn't matter & even after it's shown yes it does, somehow I'm the one being ridiculous.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Mike L

No, the problem appears to be some people can't read or can't admit they made a mistake.
What does just after release of the ball mean to you? Unless the catch is made immediately after the release I don't know how anyone could reasonably not think the QB is still the passer.
What's even funnier is others who make statements that timing doesn't matter & even after it's shown yes it does, somehow I'm the one being ridiculous.

This was a fun thread to read.

From the original post sounds like a roughing call to me, of course, there could be a timing issue.

Forget quoting the rule book and use the space above the ears. A kicker becomes a kicker when the ball is legally kicked and until he regains his balance. Then comes the cheap shot.

Using the book for a moment, PSK requires the ball cross the expanded neutral zone and the foul is committed by R. Now how many times do coaches know exactly when the ball crosses the zone or really care, the answer is probably none.

Therefore, as long as the ball is high in the air and a cheap shot is put on the kicker I would have a roughing call. Fifteen yards and automatic 1st.

If the ball is on the ground or coming close to the ground and some enterprising player decides to do the kicker in sounds like unnecessary roughness enforced by rule as a PSK.

Judge the call by the tempo of the game. If the player cheap shots the kicker and his team is down 60-0, or, his team has been giving cheap shots all game, or, even, if the kicker has been playing a spectacular game and on and on, mete out the harshest penalty you can reasonably support be it roughing and automatic first to K or unnecessary roughness and 15 from the succeeding spot. Look for the motivation of the offending player.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

...Using the book for a moment, PSK requires the ball cross the expanded neutral zone and the foul is committed by R. Now how many times do coaches know exactly when the ball crosses the zone or really care, the answer is probably none.

Therefore, as long as the ball is high in the air and a cheap shot is put on the kicker I would have a roughing call. Fifteen yards and automatic 1st.

REPLY: Ed, it's no longer a requirement that the foul by R take place after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone. It was in the original rule back in 2003. But they changed it in 2004. Now the foul can take place anytime between the snap and the end of the kick and still be a PSK foul as long as all the criteria are met. True, the kick must cross the ENZ, but not necessarily before the foul by R. And the foul must take place beyond the ENZ.

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Ed, it's no longer a requirement that the foul by R take place after the kick has crossed the expanded neutral zone. It was in the original rule back in 2003. But they changed it in 2004. Now the foul can take place anytime between the snap and the end of the kick and still be a PSK foul as long as all the criteria are met. True, the kick must cross the ENZ, but not necessarily before the foul by R. And the foul must take place beyond the ENZ.

Thanks for that correction.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Mike L

No, the problem appears to be some people can't read or can't admit they made a mistake.
What does just after release of the ball mean to you? Unless the catch is made immediately after the release I don't know how anyone could reasonably not think the QB is still the passer.
What's even funnier is others who make statements that timing doesn't matter & even after it's shown yes it does, somehow I'm the one being ridiculous.

Mike, you seem intent on arguing facts that are not in dispute. Your comment about 'others' making statements about timing is clearly directed at me. Allow me to clear up any misunderstanding.

In no way did I mean to suggest that a defender should be penalized for roughing if he contacts the passer just as he's releasing the ball and contact is unavoidable.

I was directing my comment at the time after the ball is released. From the definitions if the ball is still in flight the QB or whoever threw the pass is still a passer (FED 2-32-11).

I hope this clears things up for you.