Psk

[PSU213]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I Have no idea where you're trying to go with this. A better question might be, "How could you call an "immediate cheap shot" to anyone who is anywhere near involved in the process of passing, anything but roughing?"

Exactly what I was thinking...

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I Have no idea where you're trying to go with this. A better question might be, "How could you call an "immediate cheap shot" to anyone who is anywhere near involved in the process of passing, anything but roughing?"

The NF rules of the game identify a whole series of actions that are prohibited under Illegal Personal Contact (NF: 9.4), and then go on to add a unique penalty that applies to such contact when it is directed to a passer, ostensibly because of the added vulnerability of a player involved in the act of passing, and immediately thereafter. This appears to be an added prohibition deliberately limited to apply to a specific situation and intended to provide a specific deterent.

The original play talks about a cheap shot after the kick. You seemed to think that "very technically" I am correct on roughing the kicker so I'm asking you if you call an immediate cheap hit on a QB roughing or a PF when you consider the definition of RTP. You're willing to expand the definitions, I'm wondering if others do the same or where they draw the line. Personally, I've always thought it roughing but RTP seems to only involve late hits by the letter of the rule.

[waltjp]

FED

2-32-8 . . . A kicker is any player who legally punts, drop kicks or place kicks. A player becomes a kicker when his knee, lower leg or foot makes contact with the ball. He continues to be the kicker until he has had reasonable opportunity to regain his balance or until after a free kick, he has advanced 5 yards

2-32-11 . . . A passer is a player who throws a legal forward pass. He continues to be a passer until the legal forward pass ends or until he moves to participate in the play.

Can someone answer if there's a similar NCAA or NFL definitions?

[APG]

NCAA:

Kicker
ARTICLE 3. a. The kicker is any player who punts, drop kicks or place kicks according to rule. He remains the kicker until he has had a reasonable time to regain his balance.

Passer
ARTICLE 5. The passer is the player who throws a legal forward pass. He is a passer from the time he releases the ball until it is complete, incomplete or intercepted or he moves to participate in the play

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kdf5

I've always thought it roughing but RTP seems to only involve late hits by the letter of the rule.

I think we're saying the same basic thing. There is always some level of judgment involved in either (roughing the passer or kicker) call. If the foul is clearly separate from the act of either passing or kicking, then consideration of a simple PF is appropriate.

I've always understood that the added difference in penalty severity is an inducement to the defense to be additionally careful because of the increased vulnerability associated with the acts of passing and kicking. If the foul is judged to happen during that period of increased vulnerability, roughing seems like the appropriate choice.

When that "period" begins and ends is defined by rule, and subject to the judgment and interpretation of the calling official.

[Mike L]

Just to be clear about what some are saying here, if just after release of the pass, a defender
a) takes one step in continuation of his rush to the QB and hits him in the chest, it's nothing.
b) takes one step in continuation of his rush to the QB and hits him in the head, it's RTP.

or am I mistaken about what some are saying?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Just to be clear about what some are saying here, if just after release of the pass, a defender
a) takes one step in continuation of his rush to the QB and hits him in the chest, it's nothing.
b) takes one step in continuation of his rush to the QB and hits him in the head, it's RTP.

or am I mistaken about what some are saying?

If you're looking for a "silver bullet", I'm not sure one exists. Although, I think your (b) above might be as close to "always" as you can get, but in (a) all depends on what you see and whether you decide the contact was avoidable, significant, deliberate or reasonable.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

If you're looking for a "silver bullet", I'm not sure one exists. Although, I think your (b) above might be as close to "always" as you can get, but in (a) all depends on what you see and whether you decide the contact was avoidable, significant, deliberate or reasonable.

Nothing nefarious or "silver bullety" about it. I'm merely looking for confirmation of what is being said. The examples given were for a stark visual of what it appeared was being said, that even though the timing of the hit was exactly the same on a passer, some are saying where the hit is made makes it either allowable or a RTP. Although I may myself make such a call, I'm not sure there is any rule support in doing so. Because some coaches do know the rules.
Coach "was your RTP call because the hit was late?"
Me "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head."
Coach "well I can maybe understand a personal foul there, but where in the rules does it say a hit to the head makes it roughing the passer?"
How are you going to answer that?

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Nothing nefarious or "silver bullety" about it. I'm merely looking for confirmation of what is being said. The examples given were for a stark visual of what it appeared was being said, that even though the timing of the hit was exactly the same on a passer, some are saying where the hit is made makes it either allowable or a RTP. Although I may myself make such a call, I'm not sure there is any rule support in doing so. Because some coaches do know the rules.
Coach "was your RTP call because the hit was late?"
Me "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head."
Coach "well I can maybe understand a personal foul there, but where in the rules does it say a hit to the head makes it roughing the passer?"
How are you going to answer that?

Here's where I'm coming from:

9-4-4 . . . Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown.......

9-4-4 indicates it's roughing if he's hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". That's why I asked about the immediate cheap shot. Is that, by rule, RTP? Roughing seems to be really nothing more than a late hit. It makes a big difference in where the penalty is enforced (usually) and if you add an auto first down.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Here's where I'm coming from:

9-4-4 . . . Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown. No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass.

9-4-4 indicates it's roughing if he's hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". That's why I asked about the immediate cheap shot. Is that, by rule, RTP? It makes a big difference in where the penalty is enforced (usually) and if you add an auto first down.

See, that's what I'm asking too. My examples assumed the timing of the hits would not generate a RTP. Instead, they were meant to question the "ruling" by some here that where the hit happens can still generate a RTP which I don't think can be supported by rule. We all know the hit to the head is a RTP in the NFL because we've seen it announced just about every Sunday, but that rule does not exist in NFHS.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by kdf5

Here's where I'm coming from:

9-4-4 . . . Roughing the passer. Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into a passer, who has thrown the ball from in or behind the neutral zone, after it is clear the ball has been thrown.......

9-4-4 indicates it's roughing if he's hit "after it's clear the ball has been thrown". That's why I asked about the immediate cheap shot. Is that, by rule, RTP? Roughing seems to be really nothing more than a late hit. It makes a big difference in where the penalty is enforced (usually) and if you add an auto first down.

Originally Posted by Mike L

See, that's what I'm asking too. My examples assumed the timing of the hits would not generate a RTP. Instead, they were meant to question the "ruling" by some here that where the hit happens can still generate a RTP which I don't think can be supported by rule. We all know the hit to the head is a RTP in the NFL because we've seen it announced just about every Sunday, but that rule does not exist in NFHS.

It has nothing to do with timing. It doesn't matter if the ball was just released of if the QB is standing there watching the result of his 60-yard pass. He's still a passer until the pass ends. Rule 9-4-4 further clarifies this by saying if the QB is standing still or dropping back he still can't be roughed because he's not involved in the play.

Most teams are lucky to have 1 quarterback, let along a decent backup. Protect him.

An R who I have a lot of respect for once shared this with me -

If you have to think about whether it was pass interference or not, it wasn't.

If you have to think about whether it was roughing or not, it was.

[Mike L]

Oh really? Timing has nothing to do with it? So if the passer has released the ball and a defender is close enough he can't avoid contact it's the same as a defender who takes 2 or 3 or 4 steps to hit him. Really? I guess that whole part of a defender having to make an effort to avoid contact is ignored then. Because timing doesn't matter.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Oh really? Timing has nothing to do with it? So if the passer has released the ball and a defender is close enough he can't avoid contact it's the same as a defender who takes 2 or 3 or 4 steps to hit him. Really? I guess that whole part of a defender having to make an effort to avoid contact is ignored then. Because timing doesn't matter.

You're really talking about the ridiculous now. Yeah, contact can't be avoided it's not a foul. Otherwise, throw the flag.

It is illegal to charge into the passer after the ball is clearly thrown.

9-4-4 further states that "No defensive player shall charge into the passer who is standing still or fading back, because he is considered out of the play after the pass"

Seems pretty clear, if the QB has thrown the ball and is standing there watching he can not be hit until the pass ends or he makes some other move to participate in the play.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Mike L

Nothing nefarious or "silver bullety" about it. I'm not sure there is any rule support in doing so. Because some coaches do know the rules.
Coach "was your RTP call because the hit was late?"
Me "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head."
Coach "well I can maybe understand a personal foul there, but where in the rules does it say a hit to the head makes it roughing the passer?"
How are you going to answer that?

The problem here is your first answer was simply incomplete. Had your answer been, "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head while he was still a passer", there shouldn't have been any more questions. The other indisputable factor is that the determination of what constitutes late is yours alone to make.

Anybody else is entitled to their opinion, but the judgment is your's alone to make.

For both Roughing the kicker, as well as roughing the passer, the rules clearly place the emphasis, the responsibility to avoid such contact on the defender. The defender is responsible to guage his charge to avoid such contact.

NF: 9.4 "Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into the passer."

NF:9.5 "A defensive player shall neither run into the licker or holder...not block, tackle or charge into the kicker....

Both rules allow for conditions that mitigate the responsibility, but the PRIMARY responsibility to avoid contact rests with the defense, who should completely understand that before initiating their charge.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The problem here is your first answer was simply incomplete. Had your answer been, "no, it was because your guy hit him in the head while he was still a passer", there shouldn't have been any more questions. The other indisputable factor is that the determination of what constitutes late is yours alone to make.

Anybody else is entitled to their opinion, but the judgment is your's alone to make.

For both Roughing the kicker, as well as roughing the passer, the rules clearly place the emphasis, the responsibility to avoid such contact on the defender. The defender is responsible to guage his charge to avoid such contact.

NF: 9.4 "Defensive players must make a definite effort to avoid charging into the passer."

NF:9.5 "A defensive player shall neither run into the licker or holder...not block, tackle or charge into the kicker....

Both rules allow for conditions that mitigate the responsibility, but the PRIMARY responsibility to avoid contact rests with the defense, who should completely understand that before initiating their charge.

No, the problem appears to be some people can't read or can't admit they made a mistake.
What does just after release of the ball mean to you? Unless the catch is made immediately after the release I don't know how anyone could reasonably not think the QB is still the passer.
What's even funnier is others who make statements that timing doesn't matter & even after it's shown yes it does, somehow I'm the one being ridiculous.