Ravens/Steelers game

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

I didn't skip anything. You must apply the rule in it's entirety and you must apply the correct rule. The one you choose deals with unnecessary roughness. You can't pick and choose parts of it. Leading with the helmet is never allowed. Again, as myself and others have stated, initial contact is the key.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

I didn't skip anything. You must apply the rule in it's entirety and you must apply the correct rule. The one you choose deals with unnecessary roughness. You can't pick and choose parts of it. Leading with the helmet is never allowed. Again, as myself and others have stated, initial contact is the key.

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

The initial contact was with the shoulder, period, end of story, sorry your team lost.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

If I may speak for daggo66 (I think he will allow me to do that). I think what he was trying to say is the entirety of what you quoted was the section of the rules that pertain to a defenseless player. Your quote had a header titled "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". The specific item you listed was sub-section (g). I've never seen the NFL rule book but I assume that means there are also sub-sections (a) through (f) and possibly additional sub-sections starting with (h) that you did not include. I also know that the NFL does have rules regarding "defenseless players" that we don't specifically have at the HS level. Based on what you quoted, I believe this sub-section is there to deal with the defenseless player situation which is what daggo66 was trying to point out.

It usually takes an official a couple years to combine the wording of the rules with the philosophy and application of the rules in game action. I don't exect you as a fan to be able to do this at all since you don't have that experience or training. But I would at least think you could listen to the comments on this board and think to yourself, "Oh, there's probably a lot more to this than I realize and the NFL officials probably do know a lot more than I give them credit. Maybe I should change my approach to be more open to the comments the officials on this site provide because there is some experience behind that comment."

I'm not trying to dissuade you from asking questions, looking for clarification, or stating your opinion on a judgement. I'm just hoping to provide you with an opportunity to see the officials on this site (and the NFL) generally know what they are talking about. I hope you take that in a positive light.

[mbyron]

According to a statement that the Ravens issued at around 2:30 p.m. Monday, McGahee has been released from the hospital, is resting at home, and is expected to recover fully from his injuries (unspecified).

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/update-on-mcgahee.html

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If I may speak for daggo66 (I think he will allow me to do that). I think what he was trying to say is the entirety of what you quoted was the section of the rules that pertain to a defenseless player. Your quote had a header titled "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". The specific item you listed was sub-section (g). I've never seen the NFL rule book but I assume that means there are also sub-sections (a) through (f) and possibly additional sub-sections starting with (h) that you did not include. I also know that the NFL does have rules regarding "defenseless players" that we don't specifically have at the HS level. Based on what you quoted, I believe this sub-section is there to deal with the defenseless player situation which is what daggo66 was trying to point out.

It usually takes an official a couple years to combine the wording of the rules with the philosophy and application of the rules in game action. I don't exect you as a fan to be able to do this at all since you don't have that experience or training. But I would at least think you could listen to the comments on this board and think to yourself, "Oh, there's probably a lot more to this than I realize and the NFL officials probably do know a lot more than I give them credit. Maybe I should change my approach to be more open to the comments the officials on this site provide because there is some experience behind that comment."

I'm not trying to dissuade you from asking questions, looking for clarification, or stating your opinion on a judgement. I'm just hoping to provide you with an opportunity to see the officials on this site (and the NFL) generally know what they are talking about. I hope you take that in a positive light.

Thank you, my patience was wearing thin.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Actually, the announcers did an excellent job of explaining why a "no call" was the correct call, and they used the replays to support their observation and analysis.

I agree.

Originally Posted by daggo66

The initial contact was with the shoulder, period, end of story, sorry your team lost.

Originally Posted by Mike L

Actually, if you stop the video at 0:53 you will see that the initial contact is shoulder to shoulder. Also you can see the helmet contact does not involve the crown of either player. The receiver takes a hit to the face mask mostly because he "dropped" to protect himself and the defender's point of contact is in the side (just about directly on the team logo). That's probably why you saw both players down. The receiver due to the whiplash effect of the hit (see his head snap back?) and the defender becase a shot like that to the side of the head can knock you out just as easily. So, you don't have a defenseless player (who braced for the hit), you don't have a hit with the crown, and you don't have initial helmet to helmet contact. Why should there be a flag?

Incorrect. Watch the video is slower motion. . . the head of the ball carrier jerks back ever so slightly before his shoulder does. The only way that this happens is when the initial contact was made helmet to helmet.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by daggo66

When discussing rules, the team on offense is team A and the team on defense is team B. Those designations do not change throughout the down regardless of a change of possession. The same applies to special teams, kickers are team K and receivers are team R.

While the designations of Team A, B, K and R stay the same, the terms "defense" and "offense" as defined in the NFL rule book CAN change throughout the down as possession changes from one team to another.

This is important for some rules use the terms "defensive player" for example (such as tripping by defense) and they apply to the opponents of the team that is in possession of the ball.

So IF there is a rule that only applies to defenders then it would depend who has the ball.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If I may speak for daggo66 (I think he will allow me to do that). I think what he was trying to say is the entirety of what you quoted was the section of the rules that pertain to a defenseless player. Your quote had a header titled "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". The specific item you listed was sub-section (g). I've never seen the NFL rule book but I assume that means there are also sub-sections (a) through (f) and possibly additional sub-sections starting with (h) that you did not include. I also know that the NFL does have rules regarding "defenseless players" that we don't specifically have at the HS level. Based on what you quoted, I believe this sub-section is there to deal with the defenseless player situation which is what daggo66 was trying to point out.

It usually takes an official a couple years to combine the wording of the rules with the philosophy and application of the rules in game action. I don't exect you as a fan to be able to do this at all since you don't have that experience or training. But I would at least think you could listen to the comments on this board and think to yourself, "Oh, there's probably a lot more to this than I realize and the NFL officials probably do know a lot more than I give them credit. Maybe I should change my approach to be more open to the comments the officials on this site provide because there is some experience behind that comment."

I'm not trying to dissuade you from asking questions, looking for clarification, or stating your opinion on a judgement. I'm just hoping to provide you with an opportunity to see the officials on this site (and the NFL) generally know what they are talking about. I hope you take that in a positive light.

First of all, I think in my earlier post to daggo, I referenced the link with the entire rulebook. You are correct about the other subsections, etc. but that particular section dealing with unnecessary roughness(Section 8) subsection g. had the subtitle of "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". This subsection seems to deal with all players as it initially states, then goes on to state how officials may pay particular attention to defenseless players. Regarding the remainder of your post, if you read my initial post, I was called into question as to the existance of such a rule. Many who post here got very defensive with their comments,some feeling I was a Ravens fan/sore loser. I have no connection with them or the Steelers. If you all are truely impartial, then answer the questions that way. You are one of the few that responded as one would hope an official would. I understand we as fans have the opportunity to see so much more after the fact, things that when witnessed in real time may be hard to detect. Unfortunately, the league doesnt allow the officials to consult a replay to determine whether or not a penalty is in order, and in this case, a change of possession, which most likely had no effect on the outcome.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Many who post here got very defensive with their comments,some feeling I was a Ravens fan/sore loser. I have no connection with them or the Steelers. If you all are truely impartial, then answer the questions that way. You are one of the few that responded as one would hope an official would. I understand we as fans have the opportunity to see so much more after the fact, things that when witnessed in real time may be hard to detect. Unfortunately, the league doesnt allow the officials to consult a replay to determine whether or not a penalty is in order, and in this case, a change of possession, which most likely had no effect on the outcome.

Wait a minute.

You claimed that the officials were wrong and when challenged on the things that you posted, you got upset when people did not agree with you.

And in the game of football there is much more than the written rule, there is also the practice and application of the rules. And what many people are trying to tell you, that it was not cut and dry as to how the contact took place and if you have to watch a slow motion replay to determine what actually happen, it is not an easy thing to call. Just as easily as the officials could have made a call for PF, they could have missed to it (for example the roughing the kicker call earlier in the game). And the pay we were discussing was much faster and would not have been an issue if both players did not get hurt. If both go up, then it would not have been an issue. Then again, I do not know how much experience you have as an official, but these are very hard plays to cover even at the high school level.

Peace

[zm1283]

1. I'm one person on here. I have no idea who pmarz1 is.

2. I'm not a Ravens or Steelers fan. My favorite team is the Cowboys. I'm just tired of how bad football officiating has gotten, especially in the NFL. (College is just as bad, but that's another story) You can stop trying to discredit me because you think I'm a fan of one of these teams.

Is it not possible to lead with your head but make contact with your shoulder pad a split second before your helmet? I played football and was always taught to tackle with my head up. Clark made no attempt whatsoever to get his head up. His head was down the entire time.

Hmmmm, watch this video.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxkrgIpxa34
(Looks almost exactly like the McGahee hit. Clark's shoulder hit Welker first, but he was penalized for this hit. I thought if the shoulder hit first it isn't a penalty?)

Clark is going to get a reputation as a head hunter if he's not careful.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

Beautiful when non-officials tell the officials what the rules mean.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by zm1283

2. I'm not a Ravens or Steelers fan. My favorite team is the Cowboys. I'm just tired of how bad football officiating has gotten, especially in the NFL. (College is just as bad, but that's another story) You can stop trying to discredit me because you think I'm a fan of one of these teams.

That is even worse. I think people were giving you credit for being just a fan. But then again, you did not say you officiated either.

Originally Posted by zm1283

Is it not possible to lead with your head but make contact with your shoulder pad a split second before your helmet? I played football and was always taught to tackle with my head up. Clark made no attempt whatsoever to get his head up. His head was down the entire time.

What is your officiating background? What levels do you work? How many camps have you attended?

With all due respect, I do not care if you were a member of either organization or just watching TV. If you think you know more about the rules than people that actually work multiple games and have worked multiple years, then show us why we should take your word for things. After all, I would not expect someone that is not a doctor to talk intelligently about something specific to a condition or specialization unless you had training in that field. So what are your credentials?

Peace

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I agree.





Incorrect. Watch the video is slower motion. . . the head of the ball carrier jerks back ever so slightly before his shoulder does. The only way that this happens is when the initial contact was made helmet to helmet.

I guess we're seeing the same thing differently because I see shoulder contact first.