What I Like About the A-11

[TXMike]

In the legal system we have a term called "the reasonable man standard". It is used in different situations, i.e. self-defense cases. The jury is asked to apply the "reasonable man" standard when deciding if someone's actions were acceptable. This means the law does not have to spell out ever specific instance when a person can use deadly force in self-defense but rather the jury is permitted to decide if someone acted reasonably in whatever method they chose to use for their self-defense.

I would suggest that a similar "reasonable man" standard could be used here and therefore would not require an official to inform teams but rather would let him rely on the teams being as "reasonable" as him when determining if it was obvious a scrimmage kick might be attempted.

[ajmc]

Fabulous idea, of course then we'd have too expand the "reasonable man standard" to cover coachs (both head and assistant), spectators, announcers, sports writers and nit pickers. Probably life, in general, would be a lot, or at least nicer.

[Robert Goodman]

The legal system has judgements like that all over the place, because life is a situation we're forced into. But games are invented. We have the chance to make game rules that reduce uncertainty, and I'm amazed that several posters here actually want to increase uncertainty in football. The reason I asked the above question is that although making scrimmage kick fomation a judgement call based entirely on an official's opinion of the game situation would be a terrible thing, at least the uncertainty could be mitigated if the teams were told in advance what the ref had in mind. What objection could there possibly be to requiring an announcement?

Nobody has answered my question of why the logic of "play situation" shouldn't be applied to the passing rules by Fed too. What if it looks like a pass play was called, but team A failed to pass (and thereby draw a foul by B) because their receiver(s) was/were not open because he/they was/were contacted in a way that would've been illegal on a pass play? Actually NFL does have a rule that depends on whether it looks during play as if a pass is still likely, so it's not unprecendented. Do you see why Fed spared their officials of this judgement? Even the NFL had the sense to base it on a judgement during play rather than of the play situation before the down.

Come to think of it, why not ban the forward pass except in officially-judged "passing situations"? If such judgements are so easy and equitable, wouldn't it simplify the officials' jobs to not be surprised by pass plays?

Robert

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Nobody has answered my question of why the logic of "play situation" shouldn't be applied to the passing rules by Fed too. What if it looks like a pass play was called, but team A failed to pass (and thereby draw a foul by B) because their receiver(s) was/were not open because he/they was/were contacted in a way that would've been illegal on a pass play?

That is hard to understand. Can you give a better example including what foul would have been called?

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Actually NFL does have a rule that depends on whether it looks during play as if a pass is still likely, so it's not unprecendented.

Can you quote this rule?

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Come to think of it, why not ban the forward pass except in officially-judged "passing situations"?

I'm fine with that. In every game I have ever seen it has been common for teams to pass on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th down no matter where they are located on the field as well as during tries. So every scrimmage down the entire game would be a passing situation.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

The reason I asked the above question is that although making scrimmage kick fomation a judgement call based entirely on an official's opinion of the game situation would be a terrible thing

If it is such a terrible thing then how come it works perfectly in NCAA games?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LDUB

That is hard to understand. Can you give a better example including what foul would have been called?

There was a discussion of that here a while back -- that Fed had an illegal contact rule against potential receivers. I hadn't been aware of it until I read it here.

Can you quote this rule?

Not right now, but the wording was approximately that the restriction on B continute "until the runner demonstrated no further intention to pass".

[quote]I'm fine with that. In every game I have ever seen it has been common for teams to pass on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th down no matter where they are located on the field as well as during tries. So every scrimmage down the entire game would be a passing situation.{/quote]
And I've seen kicking on all downs, so we're even.

If it is such a terrible thing then how come it works perfectly in NCAA games?

It's just a matter of the number of teams playing under the different codes. It took many years before the A-11 was concocted; it's just a matter of time in NCAA, now that the gentleman's agreement that was apparently understood at the time the numbering exception has passed from everyone's memory.

Robert

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There was a discussion of that here a while back -- that Fed had an illegal contact rule against potential receivers. I hadn't been aware of it until I read it here.

I don't understand how what formation a team uses has anything to do with illegal use of hands fouls.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

And I've seen kicking on all downs, so we're even.

In every game teams pass on all downs. How many thousands of games does one have to watch to see a team punt on first down? We're not even.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

It's just a matter of the number of teams playing under the different codes. It took many years before the A-11 was concocted; it's just a matter of time in NCAA, now that the gentleman's agreement that was apparently understood at the time the numbering exception has passed from everyone's memory.

I don't know what you are talking about. The A-11 is not legal in NCAA rules. Even Kurt Bryan knows that.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by LDUB

I don't understand how what formation a team uses has anything to do with illegal use of hands fouls.

I was trying to show how using the same logic as the judgement call you so blithely want to introduce, other rules could be made judgement calls too, and migh produce more equitable results in some cases, but the resulting uncertainty still wouldn't be worth it.

Robert