What I Like About the A-11

[asdf]

In the day of the internet.....

.... you certainly would have heard about a team punting on 1st or 2nd down.

.... you certainly would have heard about a team fake punting on 1st or 2nd
down.

.... you certainly would have heard about a team attempting a field goal of 75 on first down. (even at the end of a half)

The list is endless and I have never heard of such an instance. (would have probably been followed by the firing of the HC)

It's easy, based on the most people's knowledged of the game itself, to determine whether or not you are in a scrimmage kick situation.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The unfortunate reality is while the numbering exception is good for the game, there are proposals to eliminate it in order to shut down the A-11.

Are there? To close the loophole, one need only limit the exception, not eliminate it.

I know that some have expressed qualms with language like "obvious kicking situation," but leaving this bit to officials' judgment is no dicier in principle than leaving pass interference to their judgment, IMHO.

[TXMike]

Mr Goodman -
I suspect you may have been officiating longer than I, but I have officiated nealry 1,000 total games from Pee Wee through D-III football, and I have NEVER seen a team punt on 1st or 2d down. I have only seen them attempt a FG on any down other than 4th when the game was at the end of a half.

It is obvious to me when we are in a situation where a scrimmage kick might be attempted. Does not take any great deal of brainpower to make that decision either.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Mr Goodman -
I suspect you may have been officiating longer than I, but I have officiated nealry 1,000 total games from Pee Wee through D-III football, and I have NEVER seen a team punt on 1st or 2d down. I have only seen them attempt a FG on any down other than 4th when the game was at the end of a half.

It is obvious to me when we are in a situation where a scrimmage kick might be attempted. Does not take any great deal of brainpower to make that decision either.

I agree. It's not that difficult to determine an obvious kicking situation.

The only other instance where I've seen someone kick a field goal on other than 4th down is when a team has a 60-point lead in the second half and does so out of courtesy rather than running a regular scrimmage play inside their opponents 20. This has only happened once though and it was pretty obvious that's what they were doing (the guy on a knee with a kicking tee was a pretty good clue).

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Oh, that's just swell -- bring up the extremes and then just claim to be able to make the judgement in all intermediate cases. I've seen punts and place kicks on 1st down, and we know that other plays are frequently run from kick formations. So...what mental calculation of odds do you have to do to determine whether a kick is likely enough to allow the numbering exception to be used? What odds do you have to give in your head (knowing the bet will never have to be collected) on a kick?


From the quote of David Nelson in this thread, it seems the only way the NCAA wording "works" is that there's a gentleman's agreement not to exploit it. Like the one that came about after someone discovered the loophole re batting the ball forward -- but at least that loophole was patched up before the next season.

Robert

Other plays are frequently run from kick formations? Huh? Maybe things are different here in MD. I'm lucky if I see 2 or 3 fake kicks a season, even then I have a suspicion when they are about to happen. Maybe I'm being thick, but what other play would be run from a scrimmage kick formation? There's no calculation involved. If you have any feel whatsoever for the game of game you know what the possibilities are in any given situation.

As far as the NCAA wording, I don't work any games with those rules, however I defer to TXMike who does. He feels it's not a problem. From what I've read here over the past few years I trust his judgement.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Dopey? Ethics is dopey? The reason why a rule is put in place is dopey? Playing within the spirit and intent of the rules is dopey?

With all due respect, sir, it's clear to me what (actually, who) is dopey.

Take a pill RichMSN, before you blow a gasket. On the subject of "nit-picking" I guess if you want to twist everything to suit your purpose, that's your privlege. I'm not suggesting ethics is "dopey".

What I am suggesting is that fanatics (hyenas was a great discription) opposed to this modified formation, who have been unable to justify it being illegal according to the existing rules, grasping for some other reason to demonize the concept, latched on to the "Spirit of the Rules" approach in a bogus attempt to further their argument.

Changing their approach from a discussion focusing on actual compliance with existing rule(s) to one of assinine personal attacks and trying to invoke vague interpretations of broad concepts to fit their particular opinions is what I consider "dopey". DopeyEST, because the shift wasn't necessary, the argument related to actual compliance was, and is, much stronger than this drift into an esoteric attempt to cloud the issue.

I have no problem, whatsoever, with the validity and value of applying either the "Spirit of the Rules" or "Intent of the Rules" considerations to each and every judgment we make. My problem is when either term is twisted and slanted to specifically prop up some argument that is clearly NOT SUPPORTED by the actual letter of the rule in question.
You can stamp your feet, hold your breath and run around the room all day long, and the rules as currently written are still not being violated by the concept of the A-11 Offense, if properly and exactly executed.

There in, however, lies the problem. The "Achilles heel" of this offense requires absolutely precise execution simultaneously by multiple players complying with exiting rules related to formation, motion and shifting that render it, at a minimum, extremely difficult to properly execute consistently, especially at the H.S. level.

If you want to attack this offense from a "Spirit" or "Intent" of the rules perspective, I suggest insisting on rigid enforcement of those rules a far better, more defined and supportable approach.

The more important, more basic issue is simply, as officials we dont get to decide WHAT WE THINK the rules makers meant, we are limited to enforcing what they WRITE. If we ever cross the line where, individually we, as officials, get to decide what rules "really" mean, the result will be absolute chaos.

This is a question that the rules makers need to decide, and what other codes covering other levels may decide, has no bearing on what is determined to best for the NFHS code. Correcting misunderstanding on the sideline or the stands, although at times we have the opportunity to assist in correcting the problem, is NOT our responsibility.

[daggo66]

If you filter out all the rhetoric, that's what the majority of us have been saying all along.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The more important, more basic issue is simply, as officials we dont get to decide WHAT WE THINK the rules makers meant, we are limited to enforcing what they WRITE. If we ever cross the line where, individually we, as officials, get to decide what rules "really" mean, the result will be absolute chaos.

A simple question...if you really believe this, I would like to know how many holds away from the point of attack with no advantage gained have you called in your career?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The more important, more basic issue is simply, as officials we dont get to decide WHAT WE THINK the rules makers meant, we are limited to enforcing what they WRITE. If we ever cross the line where, individually we, as officials, get to decide what rules "really" mean, the result will be absolute chaos.

This is a question that the rules makers need to decide, and what other codes covering other levels may decide, has no bearing on what is determined to best for the NFHS code. Correcting misunderstanding on the sideline or the stands, although at times we have the opportunity to assist in correcting the problem, is NOT our responsibility.

Excellent! This means I can count on not having to attend a state rules interpretation meeting this year!

[ajmc]

Just for the heck of it, where, or more importantly why, do you guys come up with this nonsense.

MikeL, What possibly did I write that would cause you to ask a question like, "how many holds away from the point of attack with no advantage gained have you called in your career?"? No doubt I've called more than I ever should have, just like a bunch of other mistakes I've made, but what does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Daggo66, How do you get, from anything I've suggested to, "This means I can count on not having to attend a state rules interpretation meeting this year!"? I don't know what State you're referring to, but I would presume your State's interpretation meeting usually focuses on discussing and explaining WHAT IS WRITTEN, rather than drift off to acknowledge a lot of misunderstandings that people may have presumed were intended or imagined.

Does your State meeting TELL you what certain things mean, or do they ask for a vote on what everybody would like things to mean?

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Just for the heck of it, where, or more importantly why, do you guys come up with this nonsense.

MikeL, What possibly did I write that would cause you to ask a question like, "how many holds away from the point of attack with no advantage gained have you called in your career?"? No doubt I've called more than I ever should have, just like a bunch of other mistakes I've made, but what does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

I would think the quote I attached to my question might give you the answer to that. Think it thru. Does the holding rule say anything about point of attack or advantage gained?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Under what circumstances have you seen a team punt on first down?

Close to their own goal line, and once with an even numbered period about to end with a big wind change.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Other plays are frequently run from kick formations? Huh? Maybe things are different here in MD. I'm lucky if I see 2 or 3 fake kicks a season, even then I have a suspicion when they are about to happen. Maybe I'm being thick, but what other play would be run from a scrimmage kick formation?

Maybe I'm being thick now, but...running plays & pass plays. What other choices are there?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Just for the heck of it, where, or more importantly why, do you guys come up with this nonsense.

MikeL, What possibly did I write that would cause you to ask a question like, "how many holds away from the point of attack with no advantage gained have you called in your career?"? No doubt I've called more than I ever should have, just like a bunch of other mistakes I've made, but what does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

Daggo66, How do you get, from anything I've suggested to, "This means I can count on not having to attend a state rules interpretation meeting this year!"? I don't know what State you're referring to, but I would presume your State's interpretation meeting usually focuses on discussing and explaining WHAT IS WRITTEN, rather than drift off to acknowledge a lot of misunderstandings that people may have presumed were intended or imagined.

Does your State meeting TELL you what certain things mean, or do they ask for a vote on what everybody would like things to mean?

Please show some manners. I feel as if I'm being attacked by a hyena.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Maybe I'm being thick now, but...running plays & pass plays. What other choices are there?

I agree with your assessment. It's 4th down and the punt team comes on the field. You basically have 3 things which can occur. They will punt. They will fake the punt. They will totally mess things up with a bad snap or a blocked punt or something of that nature. Now the fake can certainly be a run or a pass, but in any event it's pretty obvious that they are going to punt. Other factors, such as time and game situation will clue you in to the possibility of the fake. (another hint is when the other team starts yelling "watch the fake.")