Penalty with time run out

drinkeii · #1 (**permalink**) Fri May 31, 2002, 04:01pm

Hi - I am a basketball/swimming/soccer official, and am running an intramural program at my school. I ran into a problem with a flag football game, and would like to know what the regular football rules would say about this situation: (our flag rules don't cover this one

)

Ball is on the four yard line, 3rd and goal. The clock had about 4 seconds left on it when the ball was snapped. It ran out during the play, but before the penalty occurred. The score was 32-38, with the lower score team attempting to score. There was an offensive penalty in the endzone (an illegal push, which by our rules, is a 5 yard penalty + down over), but the ball was caught by another player. The other team accepted the penalty. What occurs from here? Do we have one more play 5 yards back, or is the game over because the clock ran out. I assume if they declined, it would have just been the TD, with an extra point attempt, and I could handle it from there according to our rules.

Help!!

Thanks!

Middleman · #2 (**permalink**) Fri May 31, 2002, 09:33pm

If a penalty is accepted for a foul that occurred during a down in which time ran out (That's what happened to you), the quarter is extended for an untimed down.

So, in your case the offense would replay from the nine yard line. If they do not score on the untimed down, the game is over. If they score a TD, the score would be tied and there would be a try for point.

Under high school rules, the foul would have been offensive pass interference, which is 15 yards and loss of down. 4th down and goal from the 19. The down *seems* moot because it is an untimed down to extend the quarter, but if the same thing happened again, the ball would be turned over to the defense on downs.

drinkeii · #3 (**permalink**) Fri May 31, 2002, 10:50pm

Thank you very much - that answers my questions!

Ed Hickland · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jun 03, 2002, 02:47pm

Quote:

Originally posted by drinkeii
Hi - I am a basketball/swimming/soccer official, and am running an intramural program at my school. I ran into a problem with a flag football game, and would like to know what the regular football rules would say about this situation: (our flag rules don't cover this one )

Ball is on the four yard line, 3rd and goal. The clock had about 4 seconds left on it when the ball was snapped. It ran out during the play, but before the penalty occurred. The score was 32-38, with the lower score team attempting to score. There was an offensive penalty in the endzone (an illegal push, which by our rules, is a 5 yard penalty + down over), but the ball was caught by another player. The other team accepted the penalty. What occurs from here? Do we have one more play 5 yards back, or is the game over because the clock ran out. I assume if they declined, it would have just been the TD, with an extra point attempt, and I could handle it from there according to our rules.

Help!!

Thanks!

Offensive penalty, that is, another offensive player pushed a defensive player before the receiver caught the ball for a touchdown.

If that is true, the first question to the reporting official is "was the ball in the air" to determine if the foul is offensive pass interference or illegal block in the back (new this comong season). Reason being an offensive pass interference carries a loss of down.

Assuming, the ball was in the air, the defensive captain is given the choice. "Captain, you can accept the penalty that includes loss of down 4th down and 19 and they will have the opportunity to run another play as the game cannot end on an accepted penalty or, if you decline the penalty it is a touchdown and they will have the opportunity to win with an extra point try."

Guess what he takes? Acceptance, and if he has a hard time deciding, put your hand over his mouth as you announce "The penalty has been accepted for offensive pass interference. That penalty includes loss of down. The game cannot end on an accepted penalty; therefore, the game will be extended with an untimed down, 4th and goal from the 19."

If for some reason he really wants to decline the penalty, by rule the scoring team would be able to run an extra point try since it will determine the outcome of the game.

NOTE: I suspect most coaches would want the defense to accept the penalty and make the offense score from 19 yards on a single down then have to make the extra point to win. But in states like New York where the overtime procedure is used, there may be an inclination to decline the penalty if the offense does not have a kicker and force the game into overtime.

You have to love this game of football!

[Edited by Ed Hickland on Jun 5th, 2002 at 05:51 PM]

Middleman · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 07, 2002, 12:51am

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed Hickland

Offensive penalty, that is, another offensive player pushed a defensive player before the receiver caught the ball for a touchdown.

If that is true, the first question to the reporting official is "was the ball in the air" to determine if the foul is offensive pass interference or illegal block in the back (new this comong season). Reason being an offensive pass interference carries a loss of down.

Restrictions begin on A at the snap. This would always be offensive pass interference under NFHS rules.

Mike Simonds · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 11, 2002, 12:24am

Somebody taught me this a few seasons ago:

When you build a PATIO you extend the period for an untimed down.

Extend the period for an untimed down when you have the following:

PA: Penalty is accepted.
T: After a touchdown - for the try.
I: Inadvertent whistle (whoops).
O: Offsetting penalties (Double fouls)- replay the down.

Hope this helps.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 12, 2002, 04:32pm

Welcome to the forum, Mike! Glad you found us! This one is usually much more active than the NFHS forum, especially once the season starts.

Mike Simonds · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 12, 2002, 05:44pm

Thank you BBR! Your insights and answers are very helpful. I just subscribed to this website and I really like what I see so far. I'm looking forward to discussing football rules with everyone out here.

Theisey · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 12, 2002, 07:19pm

Mike, there are two exceptions that will affect the PATIO.
I'm sure you know, but here they are anyhow.

1) UC fouls or non-player fouls will not extend a period.
2) A try at the end of the game may or may not be required. If needed to win the game, then sure, but if not, then only if the points are needed to tie-breaker teams for a possible playoff game at seasons end.

There are two other places you can ask your questions as well.
a) http://www.gmcgriff.com/refonline/ww.../football.html
and b) http://football.refs.org/footballboard/

Try to resist posting the same question on all three.

BktBallRef · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jun 12, 2002, 11:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Theisey
Try to resist posting the same question on all three.

Good point!!

Mike Simonds · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Jun 14, 2002, 03:13pm

Thank you gentlemen!

Yes, I like the PATIO but you are correct about always knowing the exceptions: 1. nonplayer and unsportsmanlike are always enforced from the subsequent spots and do not extend the period for an untimed down and 2. for a try at the end of the game unless the points are needed for play-off qualifications, etc.

Are there any other exceptions?

Yeah, I'm glad to know there are other football junkies out there. And I will try to avoid repeating myself on all the websites.

Take care and keep on posting!!!

stripes1977 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jun 18, 2002, 10:57am

I have been a flag football official for the past 5 years and have officiated at the National Invitational Collegiate Flag Football Championships in New Orleans the past 3 years. I say this not to brag, but to illustrate my familiarity with the sport. I'm also starting my 3rd year of high school football as well. The games are similar, but there are some fundamental differences.

In flag football, the penalty for illegal contact or pass interference is 10 yards, not 5 or 15 (loss of down for pass interference). We only have 5 and 10 yard penalties. There are no 15 yard penalties in flag football. This play sounds like pass interference, as every player on the field is an eligible receiver in this game. An accepted penalty in this case will result in the ball being placed at the 14 yard line. The down will be dependant upon the call. (3rd down if illegal contact, 4th down if pass interference) A sort of unwritten rule for flag officials is that if contact occurs before the ball is released, it is simply illegal contact. I am not a black and white official so I can differentiate between these two situations. However, the rules for flag are the same as Federation. Pass interference restrictions begin at the snap for Team A, and when the ball is released for Team B. It is much easier to sell an illegal contact call against a player when the ball never made it to his side of the field than it is to sell a pass interference penalty, especially if it is before the ball is even released.

The rules for flag football are published by the National Intramural-Recreational Sports Association (NIRSA). http://www.nirsa.org I'm currently on the Flag-Touch Football Rules Committee and we are publishing the new version of the rulebook next year.