The Snake Oil Salesman Is At It Again

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

totally separate from the A-11 issue, i'm intrigued by this scenario. Mostly I'm having a difficult time seeing what the potential advantage to be gained by this loophole would be.

are you talking about a team lining up for a field goal or a point after?

The field goal was where it was used, but one could easily imagine other scenarios. 4th down or a try would've been the most attractive situations.

how would volleyball serving the ball forward then scrambling for it be any more advantageous than simply throwing a forward pass? I can see that you'd have the "bonus" of the ball being live after it hits the ground. (as opposed to an incomplete forward pass, which is of course dead)...but is the offense any more likely to fall on that batted ball than the defense is?

It's advantageous because all players are eligible to recover, and if your linemen release downfield they're likely to overwhelm the defense in their way. And there'd be no rule against their knocking defenders away, and they could even push (though not pull or grasp) opponents with their hands in a personal attempt to get at the ball. Plus, the linemen are likely to outweigh their opponents in the secondary.

holder takes snap, kicker moves in directly behind holder. holder turns and fires a backwards pass off the kickers helmet. ball rebounds forward. as it would in the volleyball serve scenario--granted you couldn't control it as well as a volleyball serve, but you could probably get it forward.

But not accurately enough to allow for a mass charge of your line after the ball.

Robert

[KurtBryan]

Originally Posted by asdf

MY TRANSLATION

My offense was never approved as previously claimed. I was advised that my offense did not violate any current written rule, but it did exploit an unintended loophole.

Now that the rules committe will actually meet to discuss my offense I have been advised to prove to the rules committee that I did not intentionally exploit the loophole.

***********************************************

Again.... why the need to justify your offense if it has already been approved?

Please read the entire paper, and I am sorry you do not believe it, or might not believe the lay out of the process we went through, it is extremely detailed and all listed in our paper. As listed, we already underwent everything listed in the paper, names, details, and process all detailed.

Again this is for the rules committee to review, the paper will allow each member of the NFHS committee to look at the process we went through and the facts and results of the offense.

*Oh by the way, an earlier poster said the A-11 was not legal in the NFL, However, as Tennessee Titans Head Coach Jeff Fisher found out and revealed in his interview with ESPN Magazine this week, the A-11 IS LEGAL in the NFL. Yes, that is correct.

NFL Players # 50 - 79 can report as Eligible, then they must sit out one play, so the Tennessee Titans are working on a package allowing them to run it. That would be great.

Happy New Year, KB

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by daggo66

I have a serious question that I don't believe has been asked. What happens if someone decides to use the A-11 without purchasing the installation package? It certainly doesn't take a genious to figure it out. The youth leagues in MD do not have a numbering requirement for eligibles and therefore have been running the A-11 since the beginning.

The forward pass existed longer before eligible receiver shirt numbering than it has since.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by KurtBryan

Please read the entire paper, and I am sorry you do not believe it, or might not believe the lay out of the process we went through, it is extremely detailed and all listed in our paper. As listed, we already underwent everything listed in the paper, names, details, and process all detailed.

Again this is for the rules committee to review, the paper will allow each member of the NFHS committee to look at the process we went through and the facts and results of the offense.

Again..... 3rd time.....

Why the need for the paper if your offense has already been approved?

Why does the NFHS committee need to look at the process if they were already party to the process ??? (approval)

[KurtBryan]

Originally Posted by asdf

Again..... 3rd time.....

Why the need for the paper if your offense has already been approved?

Why does the NFHS committee need to look at the process if they were already party to the process ??? (approval)

OK, now I get your question.

Answer: There was Not a need for it, just told it would be a good idea to present our position since some people will bring opposing views to the table.

Thanks, KB

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

You are absolutely correct, I don't know the history, or motivation, of "this person", which is why I would find it reprehensible to defame and denigrate him. Even if I did know his history, and even his motivation, I hope I would have the class to limit my opinions to the subject matter at hand rather than slide down to angry personal attacks. I haven't read everything he has written on this subject, but I have read numerous attempts on his part to explain his position to a hostile audience, without resorting to lowering his offerings to the personal level of some of those expressed in opposition.

You obviously do not know the history and my opinion about Kurt or anyone is not based on anything other then their actions. Kurt has misrepresented many people's positions in order to further his position on this offense. If anything is reprehensible, that should be the case. He has even gone far to suggest the NF has "approved" of the offense when many people on the committee have commented and suggested this violated the spirit and intent of the rules and the rules would be at the very least revisited. And Kurt did not do this on just an article or with a reporter; he did so on this site and the National Federation's site where officials and coaches discuss rules and interpretations. And if that bothers you, then this place is really going to be hard for you to stick around if challenging people's opinions and motives cannot be stated.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Somehow, he seems to have managed to control his emotions to the point he tries to present a rational argument supporting his position. This may come as a shock to you, but disagreeing with a message doesn't require being disagreeable with the messenger. As for "crap", a perfect example is resorting to character assassination based on speculation and suspicion and the childish notion that denegrating the messenger somehow weakens his message.

I know little about Kurt's emotions, but he does come here often to defend or lie about what people have said about his offense. It is clear that he is trying to sell something and that is what has a lot of people on his case. And the more and more we talk to Kurt, that becomes clearer and clearer. Kurt has on several occasions tried to suggest he was not selling any books or any information about his offense. He has said that he is only trying to promote the game of football. Well that is not true and this thread has exposed that very point of view.

Originally Posted by ajmc

As for the A-11 Offense, I couldn't care less what people think of it, other than their comments adding to my understanding of it, what it requires and whether it violates any existing rules. I appreciate the concerns some have, although I think most of those thus far expressed are somewhat exaggerated. At present, I do not see where this "loophole" violates existing rules, but requires a very high level of compliance with several other rules which causes me to question it's overall practicality. If those rules are subsequently amended to prohibit this "loophole", fine no problem, then we'll all deal with the revisions.

Actually for many people, we do not care that much about the offense either. I have officiated the offense, but I feel the rules are going to change to resemble the NCAA and NFL Rules that would make this situation illegal.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Personally I'm simply disappointed with the with the tone and temperment of some responses objecting to this formation. They speak poorly for the demeanor and manners of officials, in general. Picking apart previous statements to suggest they mean something that may, or may not, have ever entered the speakers mind based on pure speculation is, dare I suggest, "crap" of the first order.

What I may, or may not, have achieved is simply none of your concern and has nothing to do with this issue, or this discussion, much as your achievements or failures have no practical interest to me. I would appreciate any useful detail anyone can provide about the management of this formation and practical advice regarding mechanics that would be helpful in monitoring the eligibility of receivers.

Until such time the rules are adjusted to prohibit this formation, I'll consider it legal and focus on preparing for it and dealing with it. I haven't yet heard all the questions, much less know all the answers, and whining and complaining hasn't helped shorten that gap. How close I come to, " look(ing) like you know everything" is largely a matter of how ignorant those doing the looking actually are.

It is clear that you do not know the history or previous comments made by Kurt. You do not know how he has misrepresented others either on the NF board or officials in their opposition or support of this so called offense. And if that offends you when I say that, I guess you are just going to be mad. I do not think I have done anything to Kurt that he has not done to himself. If he did not want the opinions of others, then you do not come to a website and share those opinions.

[TXMike]

Now Rut, KB has done told us the NFL permits this so don't you go a-saying they don't. (Can someone please tell me why a team like the Tennessee Titans that is basically destroying everyone they play, would even tinker around with this lunacy? I think someone is playing mind games)

And KB- you, once again, skirt the issue by saying that because 6 guys could wear ineligible numbers but report in and be eligible, that makes it just like what you are doing. BS! In the NFL the eligibles are identifiied to everyone after they report in, not 1 second before the snap like in your little game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Theisey

Sorry coach, but the new century actually started in 2001.

That's why he's right: ninth year of the new century (and millennium). Use your fingers if you need to.

[newmdref]

ESPN Mag quote - from Titans coach Jeff Fisher, the other co-chair of the NFL's competition committee says "He has no interest in modifying the rules to allow for a full blown A11, becasue it would alter the game too radically. No matter. Bryan and Humphries have twisted and bent the fundamentals, philosophy and geometry of football."

Guys I am seeing the light and the root of your frustration. Fundamentals, philosophy and geometry are not the only things being twisted and bent.
Certainly sounds to me like its legal and Jeff loves it.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by TXMike

Now Rut, KB has done told us the NFL permits this so don't you go a-saying they don't. (Can someone please tell me why a team like the Tennessee Titans that is basically destroying everyone they play, would even tinker around with this lunacy? I think someone is playing mind games)

And KB- you, once again, skirt the issue by saying that because 6 guys could wear ineligible numbers but report in and be eligible, that makes it just like what you are doing. BS! In the NFL the eligibles are identifiied to everyone after they report in, not 1 second before the snap like in your little game.

I would love to see it! By the time the 6 players got set and reported you'd have a DOG every time. Anyway I thought the whole purpose of the A-11 was to help small schools who had small players compete against larger schools with larger players. (does the size of the nearest high school affect growth rates?) My guess is that the average offensive lineman is 6'5" 300#'s. If you need someone bigger you don't need to change your offense, you just sign someone bigger. Everything in KB's position paper is designed with one thing in mind, keeping everyone's attention away from rule 7.2.5b.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by newmdref

ESPN Mag quote - from Titans coach Jeff Fisher, the other co-chair of the NFL's competition committee says "He has no interest in modifying the rules to allow for a full blow A11, becasue it would alter the game too radically. No matter. Bryan and Humphries have twisted and bent the fundamentals, philosophy and geometry of football."

Guys I am seeing the light and the root of your frustration. Fundamentals, philosophy and geometry are not the only things being twisted and bent.
Certainly sounds to me like its legal and Jeff loves it.

THat's freakin' hilarious!!!!

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by asdf

Why the need for a position paper when your offense has already been approved?

"cause he's skeered...skeered they're gonna shut him down!

[KurtBryan]

Dear Officials:

It is without merit that a few posters on this site, habitually cut down, verbally abuse and flat out lie, especially considering that the ones abusing this board are football officials. Not all indeed, but just a few, it is sickening, as some Officials on this board have pointed out.

1. Why on earth when the CIF suggested we write a position paper about the offense would we refuse? .............seems perfectly logical position to ask for a piece to be done representing our perspective, and those of other coaches, players and officials who have handled the offense.

2. We put forth the facts and history of the offense, nothing misrepresented, in fact, we used exact names, quotes and timelines. You will see when the NFHS rules committee reviews it, that yes indeed all chronilogical items listed in the paper will be found as 100% factual. And, with quotes from coaches and officials, FROM BOTH sides we tried to be fair and balanced.

3. Selling of Products? ..............Our staff is just like THOUSANDS of other male and female coaches worldwide, we were asked to have our information developed by a professional football company (just like they do with other coaches) and we said yes, it was an honor.

4. Scared (as Bktball ref said above)........What? Scared of what? Our case has not only been well documented, by our staff and officials in this region, but now by many other coaches and officials in many other states. It is scary on the other hand, when a small percentage of officials have gone on the record to say the offense cannot be officiated and are shouting..............but the reality of the offense and testimony from Actual Officials working A-11 games in Many states goes in Direct Opposite and they are on Record as saying the Offense is Indeed able to be Officiated properly.

5. There is plenty of room in America for more than one brand of football...that has been the case and always shall remain that way.

*Lastly, as one of the Officials on this board has made great pains to point out, to the officials on this board who continue to be verbally abusie, slanderous and libelous, please stop. Your ugliness is a sad testimony to your lack of maturity and class. It is frightening to think of what is behind it.

As always, I have nothing but respect for ALL opinions and perspectives, but please be kind enough to keep things clean.

Best of luck and Happy New Year to all of you.

KB

[asdf]

Originally Posted by newmdref

ESPN Mag quote - from Titans coach Jeff Fisher, the other co-chair of the NFL's competition committee says "He has no interest in modifying the rules to allow for a full blow A11, becasue it would alter the game too radically. No matter. Bryan and Humphries have twisted and bent the fundamentals, philosophy and geometry of football."

Guys I am seeing the light and the root of your frustration. Fundamentals, philosophy and geometry are not the only things being twisted and bent.
Certainly sounds to me like its legal and Jeff loves it.

The bending and twisting has been going on since he first arrived on officiating forums.

The outcry started when he tried to use the sites as a conduit to sell his product.

[jaybird]

Kurt,

This is an officials forum and you are not getting what you want so wise up and go away!