Game Protest Brewing in California

[ref18]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

So early in the season you're going to not tell a coach who had the IW? Tell me again why he doesn't have a right to know, especially when there is often a system in place where coaches rate officials.

Many US high school systems work like this. There's a league called the OVFL where coaches grade officials. Are you saying that a crew should hide who blew an IW so that the coach doesn't have a chance to issue a downgrade to that individual?

Originally Posted by ajmc

Absolutely, for several reasons. First, IW is a mistake, albeit a big mistake, that affects one play out of 100+ that comprise a game. It is highly doubtful that will be the only mistake your crew will make that game.

Second, we function as a crew and every mistake we collectively make is attributed to our crew. A crew MUST function as a unit to be successful.

Third, from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game. Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Fifth, throwing a fellow crew member "under the bus" will do little to minimize the effect that one IW has on crew ratings (all crew ratings) and will deminish whatever level of respect the offended sideline may have had for the officiating crew (the entire crew).

As with any any discussion with the sideline explaining any unusual, or unfortunate, situation the tone should be businesslike, matter of fact and reflect the proper ruling. Identifying the specific official serves no constructive purpose and raises the possibilities of having to deal with subsequent problems that would be otherwise totally avoidable.

Coaches ratings are what they are, worrying about them during a game or adjusting your performance to influence them is a fool's pursuit and can create a lot more damage than any benefit.

ajmc has the right idea. We go out there as a crew, and we need to make sure we have eachother's backs. We have to stick up for ourselves, and in most IW situations it's pretty evident who blew that whistle. In this one, it isn't. We succeed as a crew, we fail as a crew, we make mistakes as a crew. When someone makes an amazingly good call, you don't go tell the coach which official made it so he can be praised. Why would you do the same when someone screws up. He has to make it up to the crew somehow, but, you as the WH need to be responsible when the coach is involved. And selling out one of our own, one of the only 6 guys out there who will have your back when you **** up isn't the way to do it.

[TXMike]

Assuming the state governing body were to do an investigation into the incident or request a report from the crew, would those of you who are advocating the "black and white wall" still condone not divulging? I hope not

I can understand the reluctance in the heat of the moment to single some one out but the bottom line is, the crew knows who had the whistle (or else there was NO whistle). And if that guy does not ball up and tell the coach himself then that guy is the guy I will not be working with again. If you do not have the moral courage to admit your mistakes then you really ought to think about your future in this endeavor.

[ajmc]

Unless you're in a State that has way too many people involved in HS sports, nobody is thinking about any kind of "investigation" might be necessary to determine who made what mistake. If however, some governing body were to ask that question, obviously, they deserve an answer.

A coach is entitled to know that a mistake was made and what effect that mistake has on the the circumstances that will follow. Being told there was a mistake is all the information that is necessary, and there is no need, whatsoever, for anyone to, "ball up and tell the coach himself ", becaue it just doesn't matter.

[TXMike]

I will tell you who it IS important to (or should be anyway)... to the guy who made the call. It SHOULD be important enough to him that he not leave the rest of his guys hanging out there and taking heat for HIS mistake.

And I guarantee you that if a championship game in Texas ended like this, there would be inquiries from the state governing association. There is an "Incident Reporting System" and something like this would be something ythey expect to be reported.

[OverAndBack]

I agree that a white hat or a crew 'throwing a crew member under the bus' would be a negative, but look at it the other way.

What the hell kind of person are you if you don't stand up and take responsibility for your own actions and mistakes?

I hate that I blew an IW in back to back years in the same game between the same two teams (at least the first year it favored one team, the next year it favored the other*). But I admitted it and that was part of me getting past it. The other part of me getting past it was knowing that (a) almost everybody who's ever done this has kicked a big call or blown an IW or just majorly goofed up and that (b ) it doesn't define you as a person. If it makes you re-examine your mechanics or your ability to do this, that's part of the self-assessments we ALL should make as human beings.

So I have less of a problem with a crew or crew chief trying to protect a crew member in the short term (I don't know what kind of effect that's going to have long term) than I do with the person who blew the IW not saying "It was me."

I guess you could say "Don Denkinger is still reviled 23 years later," and maybe you'd have a point that you'd have to live with that attached to your name for a while.

But is it better or worse to only have it on your conscience?


*I'm kidding. It doesn't even out.

[GPC2]

Of course we don't know all of the particulars, but it appears (based on what was written in the article) that the official that did blow the IW (if there really was one) didn't even own up to it to his fellow crew members - that is what is inexcusable to me. Furthermore, for an official to compromise the integrity of officials everywhere simply to "save face" is also inexcusable. Either way - seems like a pretty horrible situation to me.

But, for my vote, I would say that the state should accept the results of the game as the officials decided it - there really would be no way for them to prove whether a whistle was blown or not.

[BigTex]

Originally Posted by GPC2

Of course we don't know all of the particulars, but it appears (based on what was written in the article) that the official that did blow the IW (if there really was one) didn't even own up to it to his fellow crew members - that is what is inexcusable to me. Furthermore, for an official to compromise the integrity of officials everywhere simply to "save face" is also inexcusable. Either way - seems like a pretty horrible situation to me.

But, for my vote, I would say that the state should accept the results of the game as the officials decided it - there really would be no way for them to prove whether a whistle was blown or not.

Baseball guy here.

If the crew gets together, and nobody admits to having an IW, how can the R tell the coach that there was one? If nobody admits to having one, maybe there was not one. Is someone on the crew lying? If there was an IW, whoever had it should have the sack to say it. I believe the coach has the right to know who blew the IW. In baseball, the Manager (HC in NCAA and FED), has the right (given to him by the rulebook) to question a call. If he does it in the correct way, he will be given an explanation. I assume it is the same way in football.
Example, Batter hits a ball straight down and starts to run, the runner gets to first, then is sent back because it was ruled that the ball actually was fouled off of his foot. The MAnager comes out and asks the PU, "Who called it?" I cannot imagine a situation when the PU would not tell the Manager who called it foul.

DISCLAIMER: The info I quoted was from a poster referring to a media statement, please take all information from the media statement with the required amount of skepticism.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by ref18

ajmc has the right idea. We go out there as a crew, and we need to make sure we have eachother's backs. We have to stick up for ourselves, and in most IW situations it's pretty evident who blew that whistle. In this one, it isn't. We succeed as a crew, we fail as a crew, we make mistakes as a crew.

Admirable point of view, and we all know that the only friends we all have out there are the other guys in the stripes, but it seems to me that a conspiracy of silence does more harm than good.

When someone makes an amazingly good call, you don't go tell the coach which official made it so he can be praised.

Isn't it usually pretty obvious who makes calls? If it was obvious in this case who blew the IW, there wouldn't be a problem.

Why would you do the same when someone screws up. He has to make it up to the crew somehow,

What? "make it up to the crew?" What do you mean, do extra good on the next call? We try to do the best we can on every call, every play. You can't say, "Well, I was going to just go at 75% on the next play, guys, but because I kicked that one, I'm going to go 97, maybe 98, just for you, on the next one."

If a circumstance warrants that you "pick up" someone on the crew (by reminding them that it's 10 rather than 5 on that penalty enforcement or whatever), you do that regardless of whether you kicked one or they did. We don't do make up calls for teams, we don't have to do them for ourselves. We do the best we can on each and every play.

but, you as the WH need to be responsible when the coach is involved. And selling out one of our own, one of the only 6 guys out there who will have your back when you **** up isn't the way to do it.

You see it as selling someone out. I see it as standing up and admitting it is the right thing to do. The honorable thing to do.

[ref18]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Admirable point of view, and we all know that the only friends we all have out there are the other guys in the stripes, but it seems to me that a conspiracy of silence does more harm than good.

We're not being silent. It doesn't matter who blew it, the fact is it was blown, and it was admitted to that it was blown. Now, I wouldn't have done what this WH did, and say no one owned up to it. I would've said something like, "We made a mistake, but we are following the rules set out for when a situation like this happens, and I take responsibility for the actions of my crew."

Isn't it usually pretty obvious who makes calls? If it was obvious in this case who blew the IW, there wouldn't be a problem.

It's quite obvious, to us, when the last thing the coach is thinking about is the officials, it's going to be a little less obvious.

What? "make it up to the crew?" What do you mean, do extra good on the next call? We try to do the best we can on every call, every play. You can't say, "Well, I was going to just go at 75% on the next play, guys, but because I kicked that one, I'm going to go 97, maybe 98, just for you, on the next one."

We have a discipline system up here, depending on how badly you **** up, there is a corresponding amount of beer that you have to cover at the bar following the game. And lets just say that this mistake would mean the other crew members could get pretty sloppy without opening up their wallets.

If a circumstance warrants that you "pick up" someone on the crew (by reminding them that it's 10 rather than 5 on that penalty enforcement or whatever), you do that regardless of whether you kicked one or they did. We don't do make up calls for teams, we don't have to do them for ourselves. We do the best we can on each and every play.

werd!

You see it as selling someone out. I see it as standing up and admitting it is the right thing to do. The honorable thing to do.

I agree...but who do you need to admit it to?

Admit it to your supervisor, definitely. Admit it to your crew, definitely. Admit it to the coach after the game, sure. But during the game, I think the best course of action is to deal with it as a crew.

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by ref18

I agree...but who do you need to admit it to?

Your crew, for starters. If the crew chief decides it's in everybody's best interests that it be a "crew IW" as far as everybody is concerned, fine.

But IF (and it's an "if" with a capital "media report,") this is true:

Smith said crew chief Rick Stannard couldn't tell him which member of his five-man officiating crew made the mistake.

"No one would take ownership of blowing the whistle," Smith said.

that ain't right.

"Wouldn't tell him," fine. "Couldn't tell him" supposes that he wanted to.

You may think that a crew is a crew is a crew and [B Joel] we said we'd all go down together[/B Joel] and I'm fine with that. While I might say (to myself) after a game, "Boy, I'm glad it wasn't me who kicked that call," the truth is we all share in the crew's successes and failures. We can't function effectively otherwise.

My point was that IF the official who blew the IW wouldn't own up to it to his crewmates (again, IF, as one might surmise from the story*), that's not honorable. I wouldn't want that guy on my crew.

Admit it to your supervisor, definitely. Admit it to your crew, definitely. Admit it to the coach after the game, sure. But during the game, I think the best course of action is to deal with it as a crew.

Fine, with the caveats mentioned above.



*Just as, as an official I hate it when fanboys and announcers paint us all with the same brush, as a journalist by training and trade, I'm not in favor of officials doing the same with all writers. Neither job has cornered the market on incompetence or on sainthood.

[OverAndBack]

from an officiating perspective, the biggest problem resulting from an IW, is getting the official who made that (big) mistake to get past making it and back into working the game.

Agreed. We disagree on how to start that process.

Prolonging that period of self review/self doubt only detracts from the ability of the crew to do it's job.

Wouldn't "admitting you made a mistake" be the first step towards getting past a mistake? Don't most people feel better after they admit stuff? How does admitting it prolong the period of self review/self doubt?

We should all self-review and be reviewed by people we trust all the time. If we kick a big call, we need to ask ourselves why. Were we out of position? Did we lose focus? Are we 20 pounds heavy? Or (and this is the hard question) are we cut out for this?

I'm not saying you blow an IW, you immediately look to bail on the avocation or turn in your stripes. I'm saying that self-assessment is good. We all know guys who stay past their effectiveness. Was it a one-time thing or a pattern? You have to ask yourself these questions, regularly. It's healthy.

Fourth, identifying the official will ONLY serve to prolong the effect his mistake will have on his ability to function properly for the remainder of the game, and 999 sidelines, out of 1,000, will rub as much salt as possible into that official's hide, especially if it's a wing official.

Or he'll grow thick skin in a hurry, one. And thick skin is a good thing to have in this avocation.

Some keep returning to making it easier on the guy who blew the IW.

We don't do this because it's easy.

We do it because it's hard.

Sympathize, hell, yeah. I feel for you. Want to talk about it? I'm here for you. Been there. Let me tell you my story. This is how it works. What can I do after the game to help you get past it? But right now, we gotta line up and call the rest of the game (there was only one more play left in the game in question, right? It was going to make for some uncomfortable moments, sure, but only a few and then you're out of there).

[ajmc]

I'm sorry I gave you the wrong impression about getting past an IW. My concerns are not nearly as much about healing bruised egos or self esteem as much as they are about getting my crew back to working efficiently and effectively. Experience, and common sense, suggests singling out the individual who may have made a mistake is not helpful in reaching that objective.

Spare me your advice about thick skin, most of the people I work with have enough scar tissue to render than concern mute.

As RichMSN, so elequently phrased it, "Whether I blew it or someone else did isn't really important to the game or to the crew. *We* own it.", and that is sufficient detail to provide any coach.

As for "self-review", a wonderful concept to pursue off the field after the game, but again, is not something healthy for any official to get immersed in at the moment. Providing unnecessary ammunition to a frustrated coach to assist him in throwing verbal grenades at one of your crew members seems like a wrong way to try and get to the point where everybody can, "line up and call the rest of the game."

[Ed Hickland]

What is the relevance of identifying the official who blew the IW to the coaches? It will not take the IW away?

[ajmc]

You are entitled to your perception of teamwork and how to support those who work with you. If you believe throwing a co-worker "under the bus", which is exactly what pointing out a fellow official to an irate coach, on the field, during a game in the heat of the moment basically amounts to, that is certainly your perogative.

If your rationalization concludes that is honorable behavior, that's entirely up to you, and on you. It seems odd, or at least troubling, that with so little actual detail, so many are so eager to assume the very worst of all possibilities up to and including some that are imaginable.

Common sense would suggest that if after the play, none of the game officials acknowledged blowing a whistle, the rational decision would then be that no whistle had been blown, and the play would stand, as completed.

Apparently you have been fortunate in yet to work a game with an IW. If you had, you would understand what "picking up the official" who blew one is all about and how important it is, to everyone, to help that official shake off the lasting effects of his mistake as quickly as possible.

Understandably, given the circumstances and timing of this incident, coaches, players, and fans were likely "concerned" with the chain of events, and it seems, in that environment, singling out one individual as the sole target for all that "concern" would accomplish absolutely NOTHING positive.

You presume the official making that mistake did not own up to it to his partners, and I have no idea how, or more importantly why, you would make that presumption since, as stated above, in the absence of confirmation that a whistle was blown, presuming there was a whistle seems like an unusual conclusion.

We all are experienced in dealing with how utterly foolish people make them themselves look, when they insist on staking out positions without sufficient knowledge of the facts, rules or circumstances to know what they are talking about. Somehow, come playoff time, a lot of us completely forget all that experience and rush to conclusions based on tidbits from news reports, comments from emotional coaches, administrators, players and fans.

Do the guys who work with you and count on your support know you feel this way?

[ajmc]

You are entitled to your perception of teamwork and how to support those who work with you. If you believe throwing a co-worker "under the bus", which is exactly what pointing out a fellow official to an irate coach, on the field, during a game in the heat of the moment basically amounts to, that is certainly your perogative.

If your rationalization concludes that is honorable behavior, that's entirely up to you, and on you. It seems odd, or at least troubling, that with so little actual detail, so many are so eager to assume the very worst of all possibilities up to and including some that are imaginable.

Common sense would suggest that if after the play, none of the game officials acknowledged blowing a whistle, the rational decision would then be that no whistle had been blown, and the play would stand, as completed.

Apparently you have been fortunate in yet to work a game with an IW. If you had, you would understand what "picking up the official" who blew one is all about and how important it is, to everyone, to help that official shake off the lasting effects of his mistake as quickly as possible.

Understandably, given the circumstances and timing of this incident, coaches, players, and fans were likely "concerned" with the chain of events, and it seems, in that environment, singling out one individual as the sole target for all that "concern" would accomplish absolutely NOTHING positive.

You presume the official making that mistake did not own up to it to his partners, and I have no idea how, or more importantly why, you would make that presumption since, as stated above, in the absence of confirmation that a whistle was blown, presuming there was a whistle seems like an unusual conclusion.

We all are experienced in dealing with how utterly foolish people make them themselves look, when they insist on staking out positions without sufficient knowledge of the facts, rules or circumstances to know what they are talking about. Somehow, come playoff time, a lot of us completely forget all that experience and rush to conclusions based on tidbits from news reports, comments from emotional coaches, administrators, players and fans.

Do the guys who work with you and count on your support know you feel this way?