Invalid Signal and Punt Receiver Gets Leveled (NFHS)

[FredFan7]

NFHS rules:

Fourth and 10 for team K at its own 40.

R5 gives an invalid fair catch signal at his own 20. a) After R5 catches the ball, K44 hits R5 drawing a DEAD BALL personal foul
b) K44 hits R5 while the ball is ALIVE drawing a kick-catching interference foul.

All fouls are accepted.

Who has the ball and where?

NFHS rules.

[Warrenkicker]

In a) you have a PSK foul for the invalid signal. Since R caught the ball the spot of the foul or the spot of the catch is the enforcement spot, whichever is worse in this case. Then the DB PF would be enforced against K. So we would go back 5 yards and then up 15 yards for 1-10 for R.

In b) you have two live-ball fouls by opposing teams prior to any change of possession. R's foul may be a PSK foul once we find out some more things. We need more information as to if the ball was touched by R, if that touching was forced touching, and who ended the play with possession. If R ended the play with the ball, or at least K would not be the next to put the ball in play, then R could decline K's KCI penalty and keep the ball after the PSK penalty is enforced. R would also have the choice to offset the penalties and repeat the down if they wanted. If K ended the down with possession after R had touched the ball then we would have offsetting fouls and would have to repeat the down.

[JRutledge]

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled. But the ball is dead once the ball is possesses on the kick.

Peace

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled.

Yes. Though you could have a personal foul if he got him in the head or [Ben Dreith]gave him the business down there[/Ben Dreith] or something. It wouldn't be KCI, but could be a personal foul if it was too rough.

We discussed this quite a bit in our meetings last week. As a safety thing, we have been told by the state rules interpreter to shut it down if there's an invalid fair catch signal as soon as possession is attained.

[JRutledge]

That is why I said "technically." We are always going to shut down the play if anyone gives a valid or invalid (illegal) FC signal. We are only going to give protection to the player that gave a valid signal.

Peace

[KWH]

Originally Posted by FredFan7

NFHS rules:

Fourth and 10 for team K at its own 40.

R5 gives an invalid fair catch signal at his own 20. After R5 catches the ball,
b) K44 hits R5 while the ball is ALIVE drawing a kick-catching interference foul.

NFHS rules.

Once R5 gives ANY signal and catches the ball the play is over.
Thus, it is not possible for K44 to "hit" R5 (after the catch and) while the ball is ALIVE!

Ruling for b) Invalid fair catch signal against R5, Dead Ball Personal Foul against K44.
Generally, R would want to keep the ball and thus both fouls would be enforced!

[FredFan7]

Chump edit so it makes sense.

You're right, you can't have KCI AFTER a valid or invalid fair catch.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Yes. Though you could have a personal foul if he got him in the head or [Ben Dreith]gave him the business down there[/Ben Dreith] or something. It wouldn't be KCI, but could be a personal foul if it was too rough.

We discussed this quite a bit in our meetings last week. As a safety thing, we have been told by the state rules interpreter to shut it down if there's an invalid fair catch signal as soon as possession is attained.

Horrible advice by the interpreter. It is shut down by rule. The whistle is no quicker than on a valid fair catch made by R.

How many inexperienced officials are going to hear that as "I better blow a quick whistle and "protect" the receiver?"

An IW waiting to happen....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Horrible advice by the interpreter. It is shut down by rule. The whistle is no quicker than on a valid fair catch made by R.

How many inexperienced officials are going to hear that as "I better blow a quick whistle and "protect" the receiver?"

An IW waiting to happen....

And as a Back Judge, I am not going to be blowing my whistle to protect a player that made a valid fair catch signal. If the play is over, the play is over. The kicking team should know who and when gave a signal. If they do not, my whistle blowing is not going to change how I rule.

Peace

[OverAndBack]

No, you don't blow a QUICK whistle on any catch of a punt, because sure as shoot, you do that, he muffs it and you're left with an IW. But you don't let the guy take off after an invalid signal (or after a signal by someone else that the returner may not have seen), you shut it down there. Didn't mean you jumped on it as soon as you can. As you say, it's dead by rule.

[Mike L]

Practically speaking, on an invalid signal where are you going to attempt to place the spot of the foul? The situation I'm thinking of is when the R is running up to get the short kick and makes an invalid signal. Since I would think you are going to allow him the opportunity to make the signal valid sometime before the catch, you are probably going to hold your flag until the catch. If he never does make it valid, how do you establish the actual spot of the foul, it now being somewhere behind the actual catch? Or will it just become the dead ball spot of the catch for practical purposes.

As for the whistle comments, I'm beginning to think the pendulum is swinging too far the other way by adopting this whistles are not needed and we are approaching a situation as bad as before when whistles were getting blown all the time creating problems. The quote was "whistle as soon as possession is attained". Now then you can make all sorts of comments what you should be careful of here, but there is nothing wrong with that taken as it is. Yes, you better not anticipate the catch, yes you better make sure the catch is made and yes that means you might be a step slow with the whistle. But to say you are not going to blow any whistle to protect the guy and it's up to players to realize what's happening during the chaos of the game of football, especially during the extra chaos of kicking situations, is just asking for a game to get out of hand. The entire idea behind whistle control "rules" is so you are not blowing it when it shouldn't be blown, but I don't think we should be using it as an excuse to not blow it when it is needed and hiding behind some bs like "the players should know when it's dead".

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Mike L

...As for the whistle comments, I'm beginning to think the pendulum is swinging too far the other way by adopting this whistles are not needed and we are approaching a situation as bad as before when whistles were getting blown all the time creating problems.

REPLY: I'll be the last one to say we shouldn't blow a whistle because the play kills itself, but...I agree 100% with JRutledge and RichMSN and OverandBack on this situation. Blowing a quick whistle after a fair catch signal in a misguided attempt to protect the receiver is a train wreck waiting to happen. Everybody in the **** stadium knows the ball is going to be dead when he catches it, and nobody from the kicking team with any amount of cranial matter is going to hit him. Let this play kill itself completely. I (as a BJ) don't blow my whistle until the receiver straightens up and begins to look to give me the ball.

[Mike L]

I guess the whole part of making sure the catch is made and being a step slow with the whistle didn't register.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Mike L

I guess the whole part of making sure the catch is made and being a step slow with the whistle didn't register.

REPLY: Oh, it registered. Just wanted to reinforce it.

[ljdave]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled. But the ball is dead once the ball is possesses on the kick.

What do you base this on? 4-2-2g states, "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal..." I believe the punt receiver is still afforded protection, despite the invalid signal.