Invalid Signal and Punt Receiver Gets Leveled (NFHS)

[JRutledge]

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled. But the ball is dead once the ball is possesses on the kick.

Peace

[OverAndBack]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled.

Yes. Though you could have a personal foul if he got him in the head or [Ben Dreith]gave him the business down there[/Ben Dreith] or something. It wouldn't be KCI, but could be a personal foul if it was too rough.

We discussed this quite a bit in our meetings last week. As a safety thing, we have been told by the state rules interpreter to shut it down if there's an invalid fair catch signal as soon as possession is attained.

[JRutledge]

That is why I said "technically." We are always going to shut down the play if anyone gives a valid or invalid (illegal) FC signal. We are only going to give protection to the player that gave a valid signal.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by OverAndBack

Yes. Though you could have a personal foul if he got him in the head or [Ben Dreith]gave him the business down there[/Ben Dreith] or something. It wouldn't be KCI, but could be a personal foul if it was too rough.

We discussed this quite a bit in our meetings last week. As a safety thing, we have been told by the state rules interpreter to shut it down if there's an invalid fair catch signal as soon as possession is attained.

Horrible advice by the interpreter. It is shut down by rule. The whistle is no quicker than on a valid fair catch made by R.

How many inexperienced officials are going to hear that as "I better blow a quick whistle and "protect" the receiver?"

An IW waiting to happen....

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Horrible advice by the interpreter. It is shut down by rule. The whistle is no quicker than on a valid fair catch made by R.

How many inexperienced officials are going to hear that as "I better blow a quick whistle and "protect" the receiver?"

An IW waiting to happen....

And as a Back Judge, I am not going to be blowing my whistle to protect a player that made a valid fair catch signal. If the play is over, the play is over. The kicking team should know who and when gave a signal. If they do not, my whistle blowing is not going to change how I rule.

Peace

[OverAndBack]

No, you don't blow a QUICK whistle on any catch of a punt, because sure as shoot, you do that, he muffs it and you're left with an IW. But you don't let the guy take off after an invalid signal (or after a signal by someone else that the returner may not have seen), you shut it down there. Didn't mean you jumped on it as soon as you can. As you say, it's dead by rule.

[ljdave]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Invalid signals do not afford the punt returner any protection. So they can get (technically) leveled. But the ball is dead once the ball is possesses on the kick.

What do you base this on? 4-2-2g states, "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal..." I believe the punt receiver is still afforded protection, despite the invalid signal.

[Mike L]

LJDave,
See rule 6-5-3

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Mike L

LJDave,
See rule 6-5-3

While looking at 6-5-3 you must also review 6-5-6 as while a receiver who gives a fair catch signal is afforded protection a receiver who has not given a fair catch signal must be afforded the opportunity to catch the ball.

[ajmc]

The concept of the Fair Catch is simple, R forfeits their right to advance the ball in return for an unmolested opportunity to complete the catch. The decision if, and when, to invoke that arrangement is ENTIRELY up to R.

R announces their decision to make a Fair Catch, by giving a valid signal, which by definition suggests it should be visible, timely and meet the requirements of a defined valid signal. Most officials understand that a last second signal, technically valid or invalid, may not bind a defensive player to the requirements of a valid Fair Catch, if in the judgment of that official, the defense was not given a reasonable opportunity to respond to the signal.

By rule we are required to stop play when an invalid signal has been given, even though the rule clearly states protection is no afforded. As for contact after such a signal has been given, the basic principle is simply whether the signal, which evidently did not meet the requirements of a valid FC signal, conveyed a message to the defense that a Fair Catch was intended AND was, whatever signal offered, given with enough warning that the defensive player had a reasonable opportunity to respond to it.

Splitting hairs regarding miliseconds between the catch, the whistle and the contact is not the objective. The defensive player is entitled, if not required, to contact the receiver of a kick as soon as possible AFTER the catch. The FC signal, valid or invalid, has to be clear enough to announce the intention of making a FC with enough opportunity for a defensive player, bearing down on the receiver, to recognize the signal and respond to it.

When the receiver fails to deliver a valid signal, or any signal without enough advanced warning for the defense to properly respond to it, the fault lies directly with the receiver, whose penalty may well be the contact he could have avoided by signalling properly.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The concept of the Fair Catch is simple, R forfeits their right to advance the ball in return for an unmolested opportunity to complete the catch. The decision if, and when, to invoke that arrangement is ENTIRELY up to R.

Not true, R is given an umolested opportunity to make a catch with or without a fair catch signal. That is why we have a kick catch interference rule. What the fair catch signal means is R is giving up his right to advance the ball after the catch and in return he gets protection from being hit after said catch.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

While looking at 6-5-3 you must also review 6-5-6 as while a receiver who gives a fair catch signal is afforded protection a receiver who has not given a fair catch signal must be afforded the opportunity to catch the ball.

I think that is 2 different subjects.

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by ljdave

What do you base this on? 4-2-2g states, "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended following a valid or invalid fair-catch signal..." I believe the punt receiver is still afforded protection, despite the invalid signal.

We need to change you believe as fair catch protection does not applies to a receiver who has made an invalid signal. Sure the play is over when caught, but the receiver might be contacted before the whistle has signaled the end of the play. If this contact is of such intensity, or say by the face mask, you can have a foul on K, but it is not kick catch interference. 6-5-3.

[Forksref]

I tell my BJ: On any signal, valid or invalid, there will be no return. Drop your whistle out of your mouth after the snap, therefore, no IW. (This goes for all of us.)

As for the flag, we throw it where the invalid signal is made. It may be behind the basic spot (end of the kick) if the receiver moves up a couple steps to make the catch.