Carryover fouls

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

Correct. This can't carry over and if enforced must be on the try as forcing an untimed kick-off at the end of the 2nd quarter is absolutely pointless.

There is nowhere in the rule book that allows you to enforce the foul on the try. The scoring team's only options are to decline the penalty, or enforce it on the kickoff. Since the foul occurred on the last timed down of the quarter, the quarter must be extended for one untimed down with the acceptance of the penalty. The fact that the rule is pointless in your opinion is immaterial.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by GPC2

There is nowhere in the rule book that allows you to enforce the foul on the try. The scoring team's only options are to decline the penalty, or enforce it on the kickoff. Since the foul occurred on the last timed down of the quarter, the quarter must be extended for one untimed down with the acceptance of the penalty. The fact that the rule is pointless in your opinion is immaterial.

I am concerned about your first statement. I specified that my responses were based on a personal foul and not an unsportsmanlike foul so we don't have the prescribed enforcement situation.

So in this play the defense committed a live-ball personal foul on the last play of the second quarter and the offense also scored on the play. Are you really saying that the offense is not allowed by rule to enforce this penalty on the try? I believe you are greatly mistaken if that is what you are trying to say.

8-2-2 If during a touchdown-scoring play in which there is no change of possession, a foul by the opponents of the scoring team occurs, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have a penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the foul enforced on the ensuing kickoff.

But let's look at the rules covering untimed downs.

3-3-3 A period must be extended by an untimed down if during the timed last down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for unsportsmanlike fouls, non-player fouls or fouls that specify loss of down.

3-3-3a is very specific that a period must be extended by an untimed down if the penalty is accepted for the personal foul in this case. Neither the rules book nor the case book says anything about what this untimed down is and 2-7-1 specifies that a down is either a scrimmage play or a free kick. However a try is also an untimed down by definition, 8-3-1.

So let's look at 3-3-4a
3-3-4 A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if during the last timed down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a. When the defense fouls during a successful try/field goal and the offended team accepts the results of the play with enforcement of the penalty from the succeeding spot.

That says we don't have to ever extend a period because of a foul on a successful try or field goal. This way we don't have an untimed free kick. Now why would they do this? You can decide for yourself but I think it is because the untimed free kick is a pointless play at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters.

So now we go back to the foul during the TD play. Why wouldn't the rules book specify that this foul during the TD does not extend the period for the untimed free kick like it did for a field goal or a try? Because there is already an untimed down following the TD-scoring play, the try.

I never said that the rule was immaterial. I said an untimed kick-off at the end of a half was pointless and I think the rules writers also felt that way and thus the rules don't support an untimed kick-off, I just didn't include my rule references originally.

[GPC2]

WarrenKicker,

My apologies, in my haste to answer the question, I obviously made an *ss of myself. The point I was trying to make (which I still think I'm right) was that the period does need to be extended for the kickoff - IF THE OFFENDED TEAM DOESN'T WANT TO ENFORCE THE PENALTY ON THE TRY. Their options are to decline the penalty (so as not to allow the other team a possibility to score), or have an untimed KO as part of the second quarter. And the fact that the Try is an untimed down doesn't seem to matter, to me because this does not conotate an "extension" of the period. This play (the Try) would occur regardless of the foul on the previous scrimmage play or not.

(Still embarrassed for making myself look like an idiot)

[Warrenkicker]

I understand your point and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't actually trying to say what you wrote.

I even would have agreed with your point before reading 3-3-4a. And because they put in 3-3-4a I would have to say that they felt there wasn't a need to include touchdowns with trys and field goals because of the untimed down of the try. And again I understand the fact that the try was happening with or without the penalty but I still think they intend to not force that kick-off. A case play about both the TD play and a kicking play would be nice.