Carryover fouls

[ljudge]

It has always been my understanding that fouls during a TD-scoring play may not carry over to the 3rd quarter. Say, for example, foul was committed during the try at the end of the 2nd quarter. May that be carried over?

Some situations...can someone please set me straight? Assume team A wants to keep the points in all situations and enforce on succeeding play.

Sit 1: A scores a TD-scoring play on the last play of the 1st quarter.

Ruling: Enforce on kickoff. Untimed down

Sit 2: Same as #1 except at end of 2nd quarter

Ruling: Can not carry over to the 3rd quarter.

Sit 3: Successful field goal at the end of the 1st quarter

Ruling: No untimed down. Enforce on 2nd quarter kickoff

Sit 4: Same as #3 except at end of 2nd quarter

Ruling: No untimed down. No enforcement of 3rd quarter kickoff.

And, in all 4 situations what if the foul was unsportsmanlike? Am I correct in assuming these don't have to be assessed on the TRY of the USC happens during a TD-scoring play?

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by ljudge

And, in all 4 situations what if the foul was unsportsmanlike? Am I correct in assuming these don't have to be assessed on the TRY of the USC happens during a TD-scoring play?

The USC has to be enforced on the try. It cannot be carried over to the kickoff - ever.

[ljudge]

I thought so too and have always done it that way. But the new 8.2.2 doesn't get specific. Is there a place where they clear this up?

[Jim D]

10-4-5-a specifies that the enforcement spot for an USC foul is the succeeding spot.

[Warrenkicker]

First we will say the foul was a PF and not USC as USC has different enforcement rules.

Originally Posted by ljudge

Sit 1: A scores a TD-scoring play on the last play of the 1st quarter.

Ruling: Enforce on kickoff. Untimed down

The try was an untimed down and thus allows the quarter to end in my opinion. Kick-off to start the second quarter with the penalty.

Originally Posted by ljudge

Sit 2: Same as #1 except at end of 2nd quarter

Ruling: Can not carry over to the 3rd quarter.

Correct. This can't carry over and if enforced must be on the try as forcing an untimed kick-off at the end of the 2nd quarter is absolutely pointless.

Originally Posted by ljudge

Sit 3: Successful field goal at the end of the 1st quarter

Ruling: No untimed down. Enforce on 2nd quarter kickoff

This is the most likely one to require and untimed kick-off in my mind. The period can't end with a live-ball foul so there must be an untimed down.

Originally Posted by ljudge

Sit 4: Same as #3 except at end of 2nd quarter

Ruling: No untimed down. No enforcement of 3rd quarter kickoff.

Can't carry this one over to the third quarter but really need a clean down to end the period. However again this untimed kick-off at the end of the 2nd or 4th quarters is pointless.

[andy1033]

If a PF foul occurs on a scoring play (td) of the last timed of 2nd qtr. Help the team out and tell them to enforce on the try or decline the foul. As it would give the other team a chance to score on the untimed kick off.

[GPC2]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

Correct. This can't carry over and if enforced must be on the try as forcing an untimed kick-off at the end of the 2nd quarter is absolutely pointless.

There is nowhere in the rule book that allows you to enforce the foul on the try. The scoring team's only options are to decline the penalty, or enforce it on the kickoff. Since the foul occurred on the last timed down of the quarter, the quarter must be extended for one untimed down with the acceptance of the penalty. The fact that the rule is pointless in your opinion is immaterial.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by GPC2

There is nowhere in the rule book that allows you to enforce the foul on the try. The scoring team's only options are to decline the penalty, or enforce it on the kickoff. Since the foul occurred on the last timed down of the quarter, the quarter must be extended for one untimed down with the acceptance of the penalty. The fact that the rule is pointless in your opinion is immaterial.

I am concerned about your first statement. I specified that my responses were based on a personal foul and not an unsportsmanlike foul so we don't have the prescribed enforcement situation.

So in this play the defense committed a live-ball personal foul on the last play of the second quarter and the offense also scored on the play. Are you really saying that the offense is not allowed by rule to enforce this penalty on the try? I believe you are greatly mistaken if that is what you are trying to say.

8-2-2 If during a touchdown-scoring play in which there is no change of possession, a foul by the opponents of the scoring team occurs, the scoring team may accept the results of the play and have a penalty enforced from the succeeding spot or may choose to have the foul enforced on the ensuing kickoff.

But let's look at the rules covering untimed downs.

3-3-3 A period must be extended by an untimed down if during the timed last down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for unsportsmanlike fouls, non-player fouls or fouls that specify loss of down.

3-3-3a is very specific that a period must be extended by an untimed down if the penalty is accepted for the personal foul in this case. Neither the rules book nor the case book says anything about what this untimed down is and 2-7-1 specifies that a down is either a scrimmage play or a free kick. However a try is also an untimed down by definition, 8-3-1.

So let's look at 3-3-4a
3-3-4 A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if during the last timed down of the period, one of the following occurs:
a. When the defense fouls during a successful try/field goal and the offended team accepts the results of the play with enforcement of the penalty from the succeeding spot.

That says we don't have to ever extend a period because of a foul on a successful try or field goal. This way we don't have an untimed free kick. Now why would they do this? You can decide for yourself but I think it is because the untimed free kick is a pointless play at the end of the 2nd and 4th quarters.

So now we go back to the foul during the TD play. Why wouldn't the rules book specify that this foul during the TD does not extend the period for the untimed free kick like it did for a field goal or a try? Because there is already an untimed down following the TD-scoring play, the try.

I never said that the rule was immaterial. I said an untimed kick-off at the end of a half was pointless and I think the rules writers also felt that way and thus the rules don't support an untimed kick-off, I just didn't include my rule references originally.

[GPC2]

WarrenKicker,

My apologies, in my haste to answer the question, I obviously made an *ss of myself. The point I was trying to make (which I still think I'm right) was that the period does need to be extended for the kickoff - IF THE OFFENDED TEAM DOESN'T WANT TO ENFORCE THE PENALTY ON THE TRY. Their options are to decline the penalty (so as not to allow the other team a possibility to score), or have an untimed KO as part of the second quarter. And the fact that the Try is an untimed down doesn't seem to matter, to me because this does not conotate an "extension" of the period. This play (the Try) would occur regardless of the foul on the previous scrimmage play or not.

(Still embarrassed for making myself look like an idiot)

[Warrenkicker]

I understand your point and gave you the benefit of the doubt that you weren't actually trying to say what you wrote.

I even would have agreed with your point before reading 3-3-4a. And because they put in 3-3-4a I would have to say that they felt there wasn't a need to include touchdowns with trys and field goals because of the untimed down of the try. And again I understand the fact that the try was happening with or without the penalty but I still think they intend to not force that kick-off. A case play about both the TD play and a kicking play would be nice.

[Warrenkicker]

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

First we will say the foul was a PF and not USC as USC has different enforcement rules.

The try was an untimed down and thus allows the quarter to end in my opinion. Kick-off to start the second quarter with the penalty.

Correct. This can't carry over and if enforced must be on the try as forcing an untimed kick-off at the end of the 2nd quarter is absolutely pointless.

This is the most likely one to require and untimed kick-off in my mind. The period can't end with a live-ball foul so there must be an untimed down.

Can't carry this one over to the third quarter but really need a clean down to end the period. However again this untimed kick-off at the end of the 2nd or 4th quarters is pointless.

But based on those rules I must revise my comments from earlier.
#1 The try is the untimed down. Penalize on the kick-off to start the second quarter.
#2 The try is the untimed down. The only place the penalty can be enforced is on the try.
#3 No untimed down as a result of the foul on the successful field goal. Change ends and enforce the penalty on the kick-off.
#4 No untimed down as a result of the foul on the successful field goal. The penalty will not be enforced.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ljudge

It has always been my understanding that fouls during a TD-scoring play may not carry over to the 3rd quarter. Say, for example, foul was committed during the try at the end of the 2nd quarter. May that be carried over?

Some situations...can someone please set me straight? Assume team A wants to keep the points in all situations and enforce on succeeding play.

Sit 1: A scores a TD-scoring play on the last play of the 1st quarter.

Ruling: Enforce on kickoff. Untimed down

Sit 2: Same as #1 except at end of 2nd quarter

Ruling: Can not carry over to the 3rd quarter.

Sit 3: Successful field goal at the end of the 1st quarter

Ruling: No untimed down. Enforce on 2nd quarter kickoff

Sit 4: Same as #3 except at end of 2nd quarter

Ruling: No untimed down. No enforcement of 3rd quarter kickoff.

CANADIAN RULING:

Minor fouls that occur during a TD play do not carry over anywhere. Major fouls do carry over - to whereever you want! Major fouls are Objectionable Conduct, Unnecessary Roughness, Rough Play, No Mouthguard. UR and RP can induce a KO in the same quarter.

Situations:

0. Yes, a major foul during a try can induce a KO in the 2nd, or carry over to the 3rd quarter. In fact, I had one of these tonight.

1. If there's a major foul, possibly induce a KO in 1Q or carry to 2Q.
2. If there's a major foul, possibly induce a KO in 2Q or carry to 3Q.
3. If there's a major foul, possibly induce a KO in 1Q or carry to 2Q.
4. If there's a major foul, possibly induce a KO in 2Q or carry to 3Q.

[SethPDX]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Major fouls are Objectionable Conduct, Unnecessary Roughness, Rough Play, No Mouthguard.

Sorry to get slightly off topic, but what is the difference between UR and Rough Play in Canada?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by SethPDX

Sorry to get slightly off topic, but what is the difference between UR and Rough Play in Canada?

The rule book deals with it in an interesting way. It first deals with Rough Play:

Deliberate acts such as punching, kicking, fighting, etc... are of course RP. 25y + DQ. Facemask is RP. But there also has to be an intent to injure - to cause calculated injury.

UR is RP cases where too serious for ejection - this usually means that the intent to injure element is missing. Most facemasks will be UR. Piling On is UR. Crack back is a UR foul, as is spearing, horse collar, etc. Late hits on QBs, holders, kickers, etc... are all URs, if there is no intent in injure.

I average less than 1 DQ per season, as do most officials. UR is just 15 with no DQ. Points of Application are the same, and effects on dual foul situations are the same.

RP does have 1 restriction that UR doesn't have. If the POA is outside the offending team's 30, do not go closer than that team's 15. So you could in essense have a 16 yard RP foul: 31 - 16 goes to the 15.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

CANADIAN RULING:

Minor fouls that occur during a TD play do not carry over anywhere. Major fouls do carry over - to whereever you want! Major fouls are Objectionable Conduct, Unnecessary Roughness, Rough Play, No Mouthguard.

Situations:

0. Yes, a major foul during a try can induce a KO in the 2nd, or carry over to the 3rd quarter. In fact, I had one of these tonight.

1. If there's a major foul, induce a KO in 1Q or carry to 2Q.
2. If there's a major foul, induce a KO in 2Q or carry to 3Q.
3. If there's a major foul, induce a KO in 1Q or carry to 2Q.
4. If there's a major foul, induce a KO in 2Q or carry to 3Q.

Note that unlike UR/RP, Objectionable Conduct will only carry over to the next quarter and cannot induce a KO in the same quarter.