How about this??

[ljd5521]

NFHS RULES

A guy I know coaches Pop Warne (8-10 year olds) He asked me the other day about a team they faced that did this:

The QB is lined up in shotgun formation, the HB is next two him. As the QB is calling out the cadence, both the QB and the HB are moving their hands as if to receive the snap.

He asked for the rule. I told him, should be an illegal shift. I also told him that before I would flag it at this level, I would most certainly explain to them that this was illegal and why. He asked the game official the next time he faced this team and was told it was perfectly fine.

Was I wrong in my thinking? Being a little too nitpicky for any level. Any help would be appreciated.

[ABO77]

After the motion of the backs, did they pause for a sec before the snap?

[Warrenkicker]

I will allow most movement below the elbows. I don't want to see shoulders or heads moving with the snap count by any player. Just bending the arms at the elbows by players in the backfield to indicate a snap count will get nothing from me.

Are you going to penalize a QB lined up in the shotgun who didn't have his hands up at the beginning of a cadence when he brings his hands up in anticipation of the snap? If that's illegal shift, then the college and pro guys are getting away with it EVERY time.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ljd5521

NFHS RULES

A guy I know coaches Pop Warne (8-10 year olds) He asked me the other day about a team they faced that did this:

The QB is lined up in shotgun formation, the HB is next two him. As the QB is calling out the cadence, both the QB and the HB are moving their hands as if to receive the snap.

He asked for the rule. I told him, should be an illegal shift.

No, should be a false start.

Did it look like they were gaining an advantage from the hand motion, disguising the timing of the snap? You're allowed to disguise the target of the snap. More than one player could have hands extended before the snap in Fed or NCAA (not NFL), and at the snap more than one player could pretend to receive it, but "moving their hands as if to receive the snap" before the snap actually occurs is a classic false start by description, though YMMV at that age.

Robert

[Mike L]

It's not a shift. It's highly questionable as to false start. It would have to be some pretty outrageous hand movement for me to call it, especially at the 8-10 year old level. Let the little guys play, let their coaches know this is potentially a problem, and move along.

[ljd5521]

I would NEVER call this at this level......heck I wasn't even officiating this game and did not see the action. I was just going from what "Coach" told me.

By the way he described it, it sounded like you had two guys (The QB and the HB) that were both back there moving around and acting like Peyton Manning. That sounded like a problem.

I guess, though, what is to stop them from snapping to the HB, So why penalize at any level. Definitely if looked like and was a problem, at this level for certain, preventative officiating would come in to play.....

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ljd5521

I would NEVER call this at this level......heck I wasn't even officiating this game and did not see the action. I was just going from what "Coach" told me.

By the way he described it, it sounded like you had two guys (The QB and the HB) that were both back there moving around and acting like Peyton Manning. That sounded like a problem.

How does Peyton Manning act?

I guess, though, what is to stop them from snapping to the HB, So why penalize at any level. Definitely if looked like and was a problem, at this level for certain, preventative officiating would come in to play.....

You think it's a problem because it disguises who the ball is going to? I don't see that sort of deception as unfair at all. It's common in some versions of single wing formation for the ostensible blocking back to keep his inside arm extended palm up, threatening to take the snap, and it's not uncommon in youth teams for the fullback and tailback to have their hands extended too, so you could have 3 players threatening to take the snap.

I think the only problem is faking, "Snap is coming now." That's what makes it a false start: someone's feigning taking the snap at this moment, not multiple players merely threatening to take the snap whenever it comes. Like Bob Davis's head & shoulder fakes.

Robert

[BktBallRef]

There's no rule that requires all 11 players to remain absolutely motionless after they are set.