If you overhear something...

PSU213 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 05:00pm

I had NF in mind, but anyone can answer. This did not happen, just a little something I thought up (nothing too great by I hope it sparks some discussion)...

We all know the "wrong ball" ("where's the tee?", etc.) play is illegal. We all know this, there should be no debate. If a coach asked the R/U about the play during their pregame conference with him they would tell him it is an illegal play.

Here's the question: While near the sideline you hear a coach tell a player something to the effect of "take the snap, walk towards the sideline yelling 'wrong ball,' once you are outside the defenders, take off toward the end zone." At that point do you say anything to the coach about the blatant illegality of the play? How else might you approach it?

OverAndBack · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 05:09pm

Just like a foul that's not a foul until the snap, I'd wait until they ran it and then call it back. They could always change their minds or the defense could call time out. Any number of things could happen.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 05:58pm

What O&B said.

Peace

Warrenkicker · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 11:54am

I agree with all the ideas above on stopping an illegal play before they have any chance of running it. However the original question was not illegal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSU213

..."take the snap, walk towards the sideline yelling 'wrong ball,' once you are outside the defenders, take off toward the end zone."...

It is illegal to deceive the defense into thinking the ball won't be snapped or that there is a problem prior to the snap. There is no rule about doing things after the snap that would make the defense think there was a problem. If the offense wants to snap the ball without having anyone move to block and just let the QB walk across the field then good luck to them. They are just asking for a loss on the play.

cmathews · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 02:08pm

that type of deception has nothing to do with the game of football.....nothing at all, not even close. Warren if there really were a problem and the qb was walking to the sidelines, are you saying that the defense could blast him??? Because, if you don't allow the defense to blast him in the actual dead ball situation, how can you expect them to know that they can in this situation......SHUT IT DOWN....preferably before it makes it to the huddle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrenkicker

I agree with all the ideas above on stopping an illegal play before they have any chance of running it. However the original question was not illegal.

It is illegal to deceive the defense into thinking the ball won't be snapped or that there is a problem prior to the snap. There is no rule about doing things after the snap that would make the defense think there was a problem. If the offense wants to snap the ball without having anyone move to block and just let the QB walk across the field then good luck to them. They are just asking for a loss on the play.

buckrog64 · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 04:21pm

I'd be inclined to say nothing and let them run the play if they want. Coaches must know we can hear what they're saying, and sometimes they're looking for a reaction from us. I'd let it go. If he isn't smart enough to run something like that by the officials, then he probably shouldn't be the head coach.

grantsrc · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 05:27pm

This is a dead ball foul and as soon as the QB says, "Coach, wrong ball." You should kill, throw the flag, and mark off the 15 yard penalty.

See the following case play:

9.9.3 Situation B:	From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where’s the tee?” A2 replies, “I’ll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
Ruling:	Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
Comment:	Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

Warrenkicker · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:00am

You guys are missing the point. THERE WAS NO DECEPTION PRIOR TO THE SNAP. All indication of a problem happened after the ball was snapped. How are you going to justify killing a live ball seconds after the snap?

grantsrc even quoted the case book play.

Comment: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

This snap was made with no deception.

cmathews - If the QB has the ball and is walking toward the sideline and we haven't blown our whistles then guess what, he is fair game. If there is a problem then we will have stopped things. I am not going to let a play go if there is a problem. If a snapper or QB doesn't like the ball in the game then the umpire should stop things and correct it. If they snap the ball legally then game on.

Again, I am all for stopping this play prior to the snap if there is verbage prior to the snap. If things happen after the snap, I don't have rules support for shutting it down.

MD Longhorn · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantsrc

This is a dead ball foul and as soon as the QB says, "Coach, wrong ball." You should kill, throw the flag, and mark off the 15 yard penalty.

See the following case play:

9.9.3 Situation B:	From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where’s the tee?” A2 replies, “I’ll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
Ruling:	Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
Comment:	Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

"Where's the tee" is a verbal action prior to the snap designed to make the defense think a snap is not imminent... and is illegal.

Let's say you (properly) don't tell the coach the play in the OP is illegal and he runs it. First - at the snap, with no one blocking, QB is likely to get murdered. If he doesn't, what has he done at this point to make the defense think there's no play going on? So, for some reason the defense is NOT rushing, perhaps confused by the lack of blocking ... and the QB yells "wrong ball" - you're going to kill this play 3-4 seconds after it started?

You guys are misinterpreting this rule. Reread both the rule and the interp - both have to do with verbal cues that make the defense think there is no snap coming. In the OP, there's just a normal snap, and then verbal misdirection AFTER the snap - we can't (and shouldn't) shut this down.

TXMike · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 06:59pm

Preventive officiating, let him know before he goes that you are going to flag it if they do what he has directed. He will likely have to call a timeout or go ahead and run the play which will be flagged but at least he was warned.

cmathews · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 07:16pm

I see this as no different than telling him before the game.

Tom.OH · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 10:31pm

This past Saturday in a 9-10 year old pee wee game pregame the coach told us about a trick play he was going to run. You know which one it is! I told him it was a 15 yard USC. I asked him if he had seen it on Utube, he said he saw it on Real TV. I also told it would not work because the league supplies the game ball. He walked back to the sidelines, head down like we took away his favorite toy.

MJT · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 10, 2007, 11:10pm

As Mike says, tell him he cannot do it, why, and what the penalty would be. Prevent something like that "if" you can.

Canfootball52 · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 09:53am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom.OH

This past Saturday in a 9-10 year old pee wee game pregame the coach told us about a trick play he was going to run. You know which one it is! I told him it was a 15 yard USC. I asked him if he had seen it on Utube, he said he saw it on Real TV. I also told it would not work because the league supplies the game ball. He walked back to the sidelines, head down like we took away his favorite toy.

Like I tell my daughters, just because they do it on T.V. does not mean it's right.

grantsrc · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 10:46am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom.OH

This past Saturday in a 9-10 year old pee wee game pregame the coach told us about a trick play he was going to run. You know which one it is! I told him it was a 15 yard USC. I asked him if he had seen it on Utube, he said he saw it on Real TV. I also told it would not work because the league supplies the game ball. He walked back to the sidelines, head down like we took away his favorite toy.

Heck, it even made it to Sports Illustrated this past week. I wonder how many letters they will receive about it because it made no mention that the play was illegal.