If you overhear something... - Page 2

buckrog64 · #16 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 04:21pm

I'd be inclined to say nothing and let them run the play if they want. Coaches must know we can hear what they're saying, and sometimes they're looking for a reaction from us. I'd let it go. If he isn't smart enough to run something like that by the officials, then he probably shouldn't be the head coach.

grantsrc · #17 (**permalink**) Tue Sep 11, 2007, 05:27pm

This is a dead ball foul and as soon as the QB says, "Coach, wrong ball." You should kill, throw the flag, and mark off the 15 yard penalty.

See the following case play:

9.9.3 Situation B:	From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where’s the tee?” A2 replies, “I’ll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
Ruling:	Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
Comment:	Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

Warrenkicker · #18 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:00am

You guys are missing the point. THERE WAS NO DECEPTION PRIOR TO THE SNAP. All indication of a problem happened after the ball was snapped. How are you going to justify killing a live ball seconds after the snap?

grantsrc even quoted the case book play.

Comment: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

This snap was made with no deception.

cmathews - If the QB has the ball and is walking toward the sideline and we haven't blown our whistles then guess what, he is fair game. If there is a problem then we will have stopped things. I am not going to let a play go if there is a problem. If a snapper or QB doesn't like the ball in the game then the umpire should stop things and correct it. If they snap the ball legally then game on.

Again, I am all for stopping this play prior to the snap if there is verbage prior to the snap. If things happen after the snap, I don't have rules support for shutting it down.

MD Longhorn · #19 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:11am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXMike

Mike
I know if you have had any degree of training in Texas you have heard "preventative officiating" over and over and over. That is what it is about.

There's a difference between preventative officiating and incorrect preventative officiating. What this coach just whispered to his player is not illegal, nor is the play he's about to run.

MD Longhorn · #20 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:15am

Quote:

Originally Posted by grantsrc

This is a dead ball foul and as soon as the QB says, "Coach, wrong ball." You should kill, throw the flag, and mark off the 15 yard penalty.

See the following case play:

9.9.3 Situation B:	From a field goal formation, potential kicker A1 yells, “Where’s the tee?” A2 replies, “I’ll go get it” and goes legally in motion toward his team’s sideline. Ball is snapped to A1 who throws a touchdown pass to A2.
Ruling:	Unsportsmanlike conduct prior to snap. The ball should be declared dead and the foul enforced as a dead-ball foul.
Comment:	Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

"Where's the tee" is a verbal action prior to the snap designed to make the defense think a snap is not imminent... and is illegal.

Let's say you (properly) don't tell the coach the play in the OP is illegal and he runs it. First - at the snap, with no one blocking, QB is likely to get murdered. If he doesn't, what has he done at this point to make the defense think there's no play going on? So, for some reason the defense is NOT rushing, perhaps confused by the lack of blocking ... and the QB yells "wrong ball" - you're going to kill this play 3-4 seconds after it started?

You guys are misinterpreting this rule. Reread both the rule and the interp - both have to do with verbal cues that make the defense think there is no snap coming. In the OP, there's just a normal snap, and then verbal misdirection AFTER the snap - we can't (and shouldn't) shut this down.

TXMike · #21 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:52am

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There's a difference between preventative officiating and incorrect preventative officiating. What this coach just whispered to his player is not illegal, nor is the play he's about to run.

Why in the heck would I tell him the play was illegal if it was not???? It is clearly illegal under NCAA rules.

bigjohn · #22 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:53am

The play never happened! They were just talking about it. The official probably should not say anything about this sideline discussion but call what is done. I am sure it was explained in pregame that if anything is said BEFORE the snap it is 9-9-4 violation!

TXMike · #23 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 08:59am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigjohn

The play never happened! They were just talking about it. The official probably should not say anything about this sideline discussion but call what is done. I am sure it was explained in pregame that if anything is said BEFORE the snap it is 9-9-4 violation!

You hear the coach tell a sub that he is to go into the game, and on the next play, "find #51 and try to take get him out of the game by clipping him as hard as you can". You are not saying anything to the coach?!?!?!!

You hear the coach tell a sub that he is to wait on the sideline until he tells him to move and then he is to step onto the field just inside the sideline and then run a streak pattern to catch a pass. You are not saying anything to the coach?!?!?!

You fellas that take that approach better be happy where you are cause you ain't going any higher.

bigjohn · #24 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 10:26am

big difference there Mike!

MD Longhorn · #25 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 10:30am

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXMike

You hear the coach tell a sub that he is to go into the game, and on the next play, "find #51 and try to take get him out of the game by clipping him as hard as you can". You are not saying anything to the coach?!?!?!!

Inciting an injury? Not only am I saying something, I'm probably tossing this coach immediately. COMPLETELY different from the OP.

Quote:

You hear the coach tell a sub that he is to wait on the sideline until he tells him to move and then he is to step onto the field just inside the sideline and then run a streak pattern to catch a pass. You are not saying anything to the coach?!?!?!

Heck no I'm not. Anyone with half a brain knows this is illegal. He wants to do that, let him. At least this one is similar to the OP.

TXMike · #26 (**permalink**) Wed Sep 12, 2007, 12:25pm

Why don't you ask Walt Anderson, Byron Boston, Jim Blackwood, Ken Rivera, Gerald Austin, Bud Alexander, or Harold Mitchell if that is how they would like it called?