12th man

[BoBo]

A has the ball 1st and 10 on A's 20

B has 12 men on the field. Ball is snapped and A gains 30 yards on the play.

Flag thrown for Illegal Participation.

Penalty Enforcement options???

Sidenote. How does your crew handle this?

1.Do you try and kill it before the play starts? illegal sub.

2.Allow the defense to try and get off the field?
if player is leaving field? illegal sub.
player is leaving but caught up in the play? illegal part.

Offense as the white hat i try and kill it quickly before play and get Illegal substitution. (I hate hearing the old "they broke the huddle with 12 players" comment. not in fed rules boys. allow the team to complete the substitution in a timely manner, becomes the WHs perception then)

[concordchef]

i am the crew chief on my crew and we since we have all 5 of us counting both the A and b as soon as we have 12 in the huddle and we see no one leaving our flags come. We do not let the huddle break with 12 men and for sure do nt ever let a play start with 12. We work in N. E. Ohio

[MJT]

The rules do not say you cannot break the huddle with 12. That is very misunderstood.

Kill it and call IS whenever possible. If it is for team B and the snap is immenent, kill it. For team A, it is a little stricter on when it is IS, but you still kill it.

If you have IP cuz you didn't get the count done soon enough, or missed it til the play was over, it is a foul simultaneous with the snap and those are enforced from the previous spot.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by concordchef

i am the crew chief on my crew and we since we have all 5 of us counting both the A and b as soon as we have 12 in the huddle and we see no one leaving our flags come. We do not let the huddle break with 12 men and for sure do nt ever let a play start with 12. We work in N. E. Ohio

You are doing a lot of extra work if the R and U are counting the B players as well as the A players. The U shouldn't be turning around to do so.
The R and U confirm with each other they have 5, that is plenty good.
The BJ has the B players and they are all in front of him.
That is by the book, and is a very solid way of doing it.

[BoBo]

I concur with what you are saying

BUT

what if a sub comes in late and the play is being called and the huddle is breaking and he is subbing for someone. As the huddle breaks the sub is leaving the field with no intent to decieve the opponent.

In this case you can not have a penalty.

the offense may be situational subbing and the player is getting to the huddle late.

we are to allow the substitution to be completed as long as it is in a timely manner and not decieve the defense.

back to the defensive play.

you have 12 men.

does the offense have the option to take the results of the play (here they gained 30 yards)
or
15 yards from the previous spot replay the down if it has not resulted in a first down.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by BoBo

I concur with what you are saying

BUT

what if a sub comes in late and the play is being called and the huddle is breaking and he is subbing for someone. As the huddle breaks the sub is leaving the field with no intent to decieve the opponent.

In this case you can not have a penalty.

the offense may be situational subbing and the player is getting to the huddle late.

we are to allow the substitution to be completed as long as it is in a timely manner and not decieve the defense.

back to the defensive play.

you have 12 men.

does the offense have the option to take the results of the play (here they gained 30 yards)
or
15 yards from the previous spot replay the down if it has not resulted in a first down.

No problem with the late substitution you are describing. Before, during, or after the huddle breaks one player can replace another.

For your last question, it all goes back to rule 10-4 and basic spots. A foul simultaneous with the snap is enforced from the previous spot. That is the only option for the IS or IP foul by A or B.

[BoBo]

thanks mjt for the reassurance.

where did you work last week here in iowa.

we had montezuma/east marshall

this week an old rivalry

carlisle/pleasantville

[MJT]

I'm in the NW corner of Iowa. We had a huge county rivalry of defending 2A state champion Central Lyon-GLR vs 1A state quarterfinalist West Lyon. It was a great playoff atmosphere for week one!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BoBo

A has the ball 1st and 10 on A's 20

B has 12 men on the field. Ball is snapped and A gains 30 yards on the play.

Flag thrown for Illegal Participation.

Penalty Enforcement options???

Sidenote. How does your crew handle this?

1.Do you try and kill it before the play starts? illegal sub.

2.Allow the defense to try and get off the field?
if player is leaving field? illegal sub.
player is leaving but caught up in the play? illegal part.

CANADIAN RULING:

We allow 12 players, per team, on the field. So, I will respond in the Canadian manner as if 13 were on the field.

This penalty is applied at the line of scrimmage, and is 10 yards. Since A gained 30 yards, they will decline the foul. The R should not even give A the option.

We handle it thusly:

1. Having too many players on the field is not a foul until the ball is snapped. We don't kill it before the snap. Each team is affored the opporunity for that extra player to run off the field before the snap.
2. If the player is caught up in the play, of affects the other team's alignment, then a flag is thrown. Even if this B player is not quite yet off the field, but no A player was tricked by this B player, then there is no foul. It is entirely a judgment call.