First 2 Games down

[Jim D]

Regarding No 1 on your list. In looking at the films of our games from last year, this is one place where we really over-hustled. There was one play in particular where two receivers and three defenders met on a long pass. The ball was tipped away and everyone went down in a pile. The second the play is over, the BJ and the LJ (me) turned away to get a new ball and relay it back in. We had five players down in a jumble and we are worried about getting a new ball.

After a long pass the players and officials need to get back to the line - usually by going through the middle of the other team. Make sure all of the players are clear of each other before you even think of a new ball.

[wheels]

NDRef,

I am a wing and a BJ. I can't assume that the TE is still a blocker just because he is in a crossing pattern. I have to see what the TE does. If he is actually blocking, then yes its legally contact. But if the ball is thrown I have a flag on TE. Now if he is not blocking and running a route, I'll take a peek at what the QB is doing. There is more to the play than just watching the TE crossing. If the LB takes down the TE and the QB was going to throw to him, I have a flag on the LB.

[PaulJak]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in high school restrictions for B don't start until the ball is thrown (unlike A where they start at the snap). Unless B is holding the TE or tackling him I've got nothing if they legally block him to the ground.

I don't recall a rule that says once somebody is obviously a receiver or 5 yards down field (a popular cry of coaches). B can chuck and legally block until the ball is thrown. And then its only OPI if the ball is thrown toward that receiver. Do I think this creates an advantage for the wise defense to bump receivers on their routes, yes, but I don't know of rule support for calling "obstruction of a route" (before a pass is thrown) in high school.

[NDRef]

Originally Posted by wheels

NDRef,

I am a wing and a BJ. I can't assume that the TE is still a blocker just because he is in a crossing pattern. I have to see what the TE does. If he is actually blocking, then yes its legally contact. But if the ball is thrown I have a flag on TE. Now if he is not blocking and running a route, I'll take a peek at what the QB is doing. There is more to the play than just watching the TE crossing. If the LB takes down the TE and the QB was going to throw to him, I have a flag on the LB.

Why? You can't assume a pass play either. The rule states that if the TE (or any eligible receiver) is still a "potential" blocker the contact on him is legal. Whether he actually blocks or not is not relevant. You are basically stating that the defense must wait to be contacted first by the TE (blocked) and then, and only then, can the defense return the contact. As long as the ball is not in the air and the TE is still a "potential" blocker (he is a potential blocker because since the ball is not in the air--we still have a running play) the LB or anyone else can have contact.

Now if that TE is running a pattern and is at the same yard line or beyond of his defender, you could potentially have "illegal use of the hands" on the defender or a hold (defending on the defenders actions) since the ball has not been thrown yet.

[wheels]

The statement you just made is based on the TE starting out blocking at the snap of the ball. We are talking about a TE running a route across the field.

[PaulJak]

Can somebody help me with a rule reference on this potential blocker vs. running a route past the defender business?

If restrictions on B don't start until the ball is thrown how can you have anything but a legal block (assuming its not from behind - maybe that is where the past the defender piece comes from). Say that B legally blocks a wideout running a route 20 yards down field prior to the ball being thrown, I've got nothing (except a lot of explaining to the coach who thinks his receiver was illegally chucked) since B was not yet restricted from contacting A.

Am I wrong in my understanding?

[Jim D]

The problem comes from 9-2-3-d "The defense shall not contact an eligible receiver who is no longer a potential blocker."

In the case play 9.2.3 Situation A it adds, " if the receiver is not attempting to block or has moved pass or in moving away, it is illegal for the defender to use hands in this matter..."

We aren't talking pass interfernce here - it would be illegal use of the hands. The question is, if a tight end is moving across the field and "is not attempting to block", can he be contacted? By the strict application of this rule, he can't. However, if he is between the linebacker and the QB does that make him a potential blocker even if he might be looking back toward the QB?

[wheels]

NDRef, you were saying?

[PaulJak]

Jim D. thanks for the rule reference.

(This got long winded as I kept typing, sorry)

This starts to get into a judgement decision (which is why we get paid the big bucks ). The key word in that is potential blocker. What does potential mean? If you are between me and the ball are you a potential blocker?

If you are running a drag route across the middle I'm still reading you as potential blocker. The defender may or may not realize that A is running a sweep and the drag route is really A moving to block downfield. A knows what play they are running, B doesn't, so B is given a higher degree of latitude for contact - until the ball is thrown.

I think that everybody on A is a potential blocker until that ball is actually thrown. After its thrown, everyone but the player who caught it starts to block again, which means they remain a potential blocker throughout the down (with the exception of when the pass is in flight - which is when B is restricted).

It may seem like I'm ignoring 9-2-3-d, but I'm not aware of potential blocker being defined and it doesn't specify a time period during the down. So if A can return to being a blocker later in the down, they are a potential blocker throughout the down.

[l3will]

Don't have my rule book at work, but I do have the case book.

On Page 62 and 63...

Blocking - Use of hands.
9.2.3 Situation A: End A1 sprints from the line and then cuts sharply
toward the middle of the field. A1 makes no attempt to block defensive back
B1. B1 pursues A1 and pushes him from the side using his open hands. Contact
is made on A1's upper arm before the pass is thrown. A1 was moving away from
B1 when the contact occurred. RULING: Illegal use of hands by B1. A defender may
legally contact an eligible receiver beyond the neutral zone before the pass is in
flight. The contact may be a block or ward off the opponent who is attempting to
block by pushing or pulling him. However, if the receiver is not attempting to block
or has gone past or is moving away, it is illegal for the defender to use hands in the
manner described. In this situation, it is clear that A1 is no longer a potential blocker on B1. ( 2-3-5a, 7-5-7 )

9.2.3 Situation C: Quarterback A1 drops back 15 yards and throws a legal forward pass intended for A2, who is 5 yards behing the neutral zone.. Before the pass reaches A2: (a) B1 tackles A2; or (b) B1 blocks A2. RULING: In (a), tackling A2 is
a foul, as it is a form of holding. Defensive players are prohibited from grasping an
opponent other than the runner. The foul in (a) occurs during a loose-ball play, and
the 10-yard penalty will be administered from the previous spot. In (b), the contact by B1 is not pass interference and, if the block itself is legal, there is no infraction.
(7-5_10)

......
My personal note about receivers on a crossing routine or driving towards a defender.
I can't read the receivers mind so I don't expect a defender to be able to read the receiver's mind either. So if there is any chance that the receiver can block a defender, then I allow that defender to make legal contact. As the case play says, that doubt is removed if the receiver is moving away from the defender.

See the whole play and rule accordingly...

[NDRef]

Originally Posted by wheels

The statement you just made is based on the TE starting out blocking at the snap of the ball. We are talking about a TE running a route across the field.

Wheels,

Read also what PaulJak wrote. I\we are not talking about blocking at the snap. We are talking about TE still being a potential blocker---that has nothing to do with "running a route". You need to understand what the rules allow for National Federation. You cannot assume that a TE running across the middle is running a route--he may be looking for someone to block--therefore he is still a potential blocker to the defender in front of him (ie--the potential blocker TE is not a the same yard line or in advance of the defender). A pass play is NOT a pass play until the ball crosses the line of scrimmage. Therefore the TE is not protected from contact (other than illegal use of the hands or holding) simply because he MAY be running a route on a play that MAY be a pass play. If a LB comes up and hits him as described in the original post and supported by PaulJak--it is legal BECAUSE he is still a potential blocker and the ball has not been released and subsequently crosses the line of scrimmage.