Punt Formation

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Thanks. How long ago? I was wondering when they'd finally take a look at that thing.

The rule did have the virtue, or drawback, depending on your taste, of making the defense cover anybody wide fairly closely, no matter how long the yardage situation. But the requirement that the ball cross the LOS and the incentive to keep the kick very short meant a difficult call visualizing the LOS, the point of kick, and (usually) the point of recovery.

Can I take it that now the continuity of downs is interrupted by a kick only if R touches or is touched by the kick on their side of the LOS?

Robert

Not sure. I started football in 96, but waited a few years until I really got into the book. I don't remember anything like you describe, and although football was my second sport (now my first), I knew enough to be a sponge.

My bold emphases that may be of interest.


Article 2 – Continuity Interrupted
The continuity of downs is interrupted:

When Team A gains the required distance for first down.

When Team A fails on 3rd down to gain the required distance for 1st down.

When Team B obtains possession of the ball – by recovering a fumble, intercepting a pass, by any other legal play, or by penalty (touching the ball is not possession).

When there is a loose ball on a play from scrimmage, (e.g., fumble, blocked kick, etc.) and Team B dribbles the ball, 1st down is awarded to the team which ultimately recovers the ball after the B dribble.

When the ball is punted, dropped kicked or place kicked over the line of scrimmage. A ball dribbled over the line of scrimmage by A does NOT interrupt the continuity of downs.

When the ball is kicked (but NOT dribbled) by Team A over the line of scrimmage and is legally recovered by Team A, before the ball has been touched by team B across the line of scrimmage, 1st down is awarded to Team A only if the required distance for a first down is gained.

When the ball is kicked out of bounds, strikes the opponent’s goal post assembly in flight on a kick from scrimmage, is blocked directly out of bounds by Team B, or is last touched by Team B before going out of bounds.

When a score is made.

[Robert Goodman]

Thanks for the update, I was way behind. I note the typical lack of economy of words in (but not limited to) Canadian football rule books, taking twice or more as many words as they need to say it. Mind if I indulge in a little editing?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Article 2 – Continuity Interrupted
The continuity of downs is interrupted:

When Team A gains the required distance for first down.

OK.

When Team A fails on 3rd down to gain the required distance for 1st down.

That was always unnecessary or misleading wording. That's not interruption, that's completion of a series of downs.

When Team B obtains possession of the ball– by recovering a fumble, intercepting a pass, by any other legal play, or by penalty (touching the ball is not possession).

Only the part I bolded is necessary.

When there is a loose ball on a play from scrimmage, (e.g., fumble, blocked kick, etc.) and Team B dribbles the ball, 1st down is awarded to the team which ultimately recovers the ball after the B dribble.

Likewise. I think they added all that extra wording because way back, there was some over-specificity and vagueness referring to when the defense "breaks through" and dribbles. But the clause after the last comma messes up the parallel construction, which is supposed to be, "Continuity of downs is interrupted when blah blah...."

When the ball is punted, dropped kicked or place kicked over the line of scrimmage. A ball dribbled over the line of scrimmage by A does NOT interrupt the continuity of downs.

When the ball is kicked (but NOT dribbled) by Team A over the line of scrimmage and is [not] legally recovered by Team A, before the ball has been touched by team B across the line of scrimmage, 1st down is awarded to Team A only if the required distance for a first down is gained.

Similarly, with the "not" economically positioned. Seems they like to add a paragraph in preference to editing to change existing language. Again they interrupt the parallel construction.

When the ball is kicked out of bounds, strikes the opponent’s goal post assembly in flight on a kick from scrimmage, is blocked directly out of bounds by Team B, or is last touched by Team B before going out of bounds.

When a score is made.

And arguably they could shorten or eliminate the above by consolidating or considering with some provisions elsewhere with which it's redundant.

But all this ain't nuthin'. You should've seen the first rule book of the Independent Women's Football League. It was unusable. Literally, the officials ignored it, with good reason.

Robert

[ForensicRef]

I'm confused, are you guys quoting from the Canadian rule books?

Here's my interpretation of the rule from the NFHS case book that I'm looking at for this situation.

Originally Posted by HL Clippenchain

Thanks, Boboman.

What if it travels just past the LOS but while it's still in the air, it blows back behind the LOS and is recovered by K? R never touches it. Is it K's ball or R's?

Anyone that can help, it would be greatly appreciated. If you know the rule citing, that's a bonus too.

HLC

6.2.6...The [expanded neutral] zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if an R player is in position to catch the ball.

6.1.6 SITUATION B: The ball is free kicked from K's 40-yard line and in flight, it crosses the 50-yard line before a strong wind blows it back to K's 45 where it: (a) is touched in flight by K1, or (b) touches the ground and is recovered by K2. RULING: Kick-catching interference in (a), first and 10 for K in (b).

I realize that second one is about a kickoff, but as I see the rule the expanded neutral zone on kicks(scrimmage or free) is a plane and once it's breeched, even if the ball is blown backwards, it's considered to have passed it. So, on a punt(or FG, i.e. a scrimmage kick)...if the ball is beyond the expanded neutral zone and K catches the ball with an R player in the area then it's kick-catching interference. If K touches the ball after it hits the ground or catches it in the air with no R player around that would have been able to catch it, then it's first touching.

Comments?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ForensicRef

I'm confused, are you guys quoting from the Canadian rule books?

Yes. Robert is one of the few people here who have experience with both rule sets. (My guess.) I live in Southern Ontario and obviously do Canadian ball.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ForensicRef

Here's my interpretation of the rule from the NFHS case book that I'm looking at for this situation.

6.1.6 SITUATION B: The ball is free kicked from K's 40-yard line and in flight, it crosses the 50-yard line before a strong wind blows it back to K's 45 where it: (a) is touched in flight by K1, or (b) touches the ground and is recovered by K2. RULING: Kick-catching interference in (a), first and 10 for K in (b).

That used to be a difference between Fed & NCAA. For a long time it was as above in NCAA, but in Fed the ball had to have touched the ground on or behind R's line. Oddly, the free kick lines were treated as lines by Fed and planes by NCAA, while the goals (for scoring purposes) were treated as planes by Fed and lines by NCAA.

Robert

[With_Two_Flakes]

As Boboman316 said - the most important thing is to determine whether the ball crosses the LOS. He also said to help out the Referee on a bad snap. But you have to be careful in interpreting what he meant by that. I can't speak for the Mechanics in your area, but here in the UK we drill into our HL's that they can only help the Referee with their eyes, but not their feet.

A bad snap over the punters head that he has to scramble back to collect, before spinning around and kicking under pressure is precisely the type of situation where the punted ball will likely land a foot beyond the LOS, or maybe a foot behind it!! The HL must remain at the LOS to be able to determine this. If a K player grabs the ball and starts advancing it, only the HL is likely to know whether to allow it or blow it dead.

We also have the HL responsible for watching the block thrown by the "last ditch guy" ie the player who lines up a little in front of the punter to pick up any team R players who get past the O line. He is often a smallish player and may well be tempted to block low.