One more play

[Bob M.]

REPLY: I agree with all of the principles that Jim D. mentions. But still remember that once that snap is grounded, the bat by B is illegal and still must be dealt with

Big Ump...illegal batting is a spot foul in only two cases and this ain't one of 'em:
(1) when it is by the offense behind the basic spot, or
(2) anyone want to guess the other one?

[Jim D]

Bob's comment is correct. Even though the play mentioned a "bat", I pictured it as a "muff" which makes this a good place to discuss the differences between the two.

If a ball is loose and B is trying to recover it, he is likely to muff the ball (touching it in an unsuccessful attempt to recover). He could also bat the ball (intentionally slapping or stricking the ball with the arm or hand) - most likely in an attempt to prevent A's recovery. Make sure you don't flag B's muff as a bat when B touches the ball intentionally in an attempt to secure possession. In this situation, you have to read the play and judge B's intention - was he trying to recover the ball himself (muff) when he struck it or was he trying to knock the ball away from A (bat).

[MJT]

Let's say it was a BAT. Then what???? That was where I was going with this play. What is the enforcement of the batting penalty?

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Jim D

Bob's comment is correct. Even though the play mentioned a "bat", I pictured it as a "muff" which makes this a good place to discuss the differences between the two.

If a ball is loose and B is trying to recover it, he is likely to muff the ball (touching it in an unsuccessful attempt to recover). He could also bat the ball (intentionally slapping or stricking the ball with the arm or hand) - most likely in an attempt to prevent A's recovery. Make sure you don't flag B's muff as a bat when B touches the ball intentionally in an attempt to secure possession. In this situation, you have to read the play and judge B's intention - was he trying to recover the ball himself (muff) when he struck it or was he trying to knock the ball away from A (bat).

REPLY: Correct Jim...and what I was trying to drive home is this: The comment in your original post about not 'rewarding' A with a TB on a marginal ruling of a new force by B is great. But once B fouls, I think the scales begin to tip in the other direction and you don't want to reward B. That batting foul needs to be flagged in order to prevent that. Do you see what I was getting at? I didn't explicitly say it above.

[Jim D]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Correct Jim...and what I was trying to drive home is this: The comment in your original post about not 'rewarding' A with a TB on a marginal ruling of a new force by B is great. But once B fouls, I think the scales begin to tip in the other direction and you don't want to reward B. That batting foul needs to be flagged in order to prevent that. Do you see what I was getting at? I didn't explicitly say it above.

I understand. I agree that a foul by B changes the dynamics.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: I agree with all of the principles that Jim D. mentions. But still remember that once that snap is grounded, the bat by B is illegal and still must be dealt with

Big Ump...illegal batting is a spot foul in only two cases and this ain't one of 'em:
(1) when it is by the offense behind the basic spot, or
(2) anyone want to guess the other one?

When it's by R in a PSK situation and the bat is behind the PSK spot.

The original situation is neat because whether or not the ball has hit ground is important for TWO reasons: first, as pointed out, because no new force can be added to a pass in flight (and a long snap is a backward pass) - thus the result of the play might change. Second, the bat is illegal if the snap has hit the ground, but legal if it has not.

So there won't be any judgement regarding force involved on the original play. Either the snap never hit the ground and the play results in a safety with no fouls, or the snap was grounded and no one will care about the result of the play, because the illegal bat produces A 1/10 @ A35.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Jim D. and Roamin' Ump got the one I was thinking of. Like I said, "It is Probably Something Kooky."

[MJT]

Classic clue Bob!!! Classic!!

[Tom.OH]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Jim D. and Roamin' Ump got the one I was thinking of. Like I said, "It is Probably Something Kooky."

Bob'll be here all night folks, make sure you tip your servers!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Jim D. and Roamin' Ump got the one I was thinking of. Like I said, "It is Probably Something Kooky."

From reading the US applications for the past few years, I know that PSK is Post Scrimmage Kick!