Tough to find

Coachmerritt · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 21, 2001, 01:31pm

Men I would really appreciate your input on this one... this happened to us in our first game and I have a good idea what the call should be...but can anyone help?

We had the ball 4th and goal on opponents 17 yd. line and we lined up to attempt a field goal with 7 seconds remaining in the first half. We bobbled the snap and the holder began to scramble. He was hit inbounds by an opposing defender and as they crossed the out of bounds line at the 16 yd. line the defender slammed the ball carrier down. The flag was thrown immediately, and the defender was called for a personal foul. Time had expired during the play.

The way I interpret the rules I felt:

Personal Foul illegal personal contact....half the distance...replay 4th down...untimed down.

Is this a correct reading of the rule?

Should the penalty have been considered a "dead ball" foul since it happened out of bounds...or would it be considered a foul that was on a continuing action?

If it was a dead ball foul how would that affect the ruling?

Thanks I really appreciate your help.

Chris Merritt

Zeke5 · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 21, 2001, 01:49pm

Dead ball foul. Since time ran out, the penalty will enforced on the kickoff to start the second half.

Even if time did not run out, it would still be B's ball 1st and 10 at B's 8.

The foul occurred after A's failed attempt to make the line to gain on 4th down. Think of it this way: It is B's ball the instant A stepped out of bounds.

As for the untimed down: the period would only be extened untimed if there was a penalty accepted for foul which occurred during the play (except unsportsmanlike). Your play was over when the foul occurred (dead ball).

BktBallRef · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Sep 21, 2001, 09:57pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Coachmerritt

Should the penalty have been considered a "dead ball" foul since it happened out of bounds...or would it be considered a foul that was on a continuing action?

Zeke is correct. I only want to point out that "continuing action" is an NFL term and does not apply to high school football. Forget what you see on Sunday, as most of it does not apply on Friday night.

Coachmerritt · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 23, 2001, 11:37am

Thanks for your help....

But the problem for me is... that in essence had that play occurred in the 4th Quarter then the penalty would have gone "non penalized". That is a loop hole that is unfortunate.

BktBallRef · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Sep 23, 2001, 11:50am

Quote:

Originally posted by Coachmerritt
Thanks for your help....

But the problem for me is... that in essence had that play occurred in the 4th Quarter then the penalty would have gone "non penalized". That is a loop hole that is unfortunate.

It's not a loophole, coach. It's simply the way things are. Lots of penalties go unpenalized.

For example, your QB throws a pass but is roughed by a defender. the receiver makes the catch and goes for a TD. The foul goes unpenalized.

Zeke5 · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 24, 2001, 09:30am

This play would actually be ruled the same way in the NFL since the "continuing action" principle does not apply to a 4th down where A has failed to make the line to gain.

BktBallRef · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Sep 24, 2001, 11:25am

They maybe but I honestly think that you only confuse people when you use NFL terms for NF games.

rdodom · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 01, 2001, 11:40am

I hate to disagree with all the above but this could, I repeat "could", be considered a live ball foul. The way I see it, I do consider this action as a continuation! And "continuation" may not be mentioned much in the rule book, but it is considered in NFHS rules.

The official seeing the play has to make the call!

If someone is tackled near the sideline and slams the runner down in an unacceptable way, it could be considered a personal foul and could be treated as a live ball foul. Especially if it was part of the tackle! It doesn't make it "a dead ball foul", just because it happened out of bounds. If the same play had happened in bounds, would it have been called a live ball personal foul? To make it a dead ball foul, it has to happen as the name implies, during a DEAD BALL. In other words, after the play was over! If the runner was tackled and the play was over and then hit late, that is a dead ball foul. I don't care if it happens in bounds or out of bounds!

Now if the covering official thought that the tackler picked the runner up, as some do in a front-on tackles, and actually carried the runner out of bounds and then slammed the runner down, that may be considered a dead ball foul. Again, if it is considered a dead ball foul in bounds, then it will be condidered a dead ball foul if it happens out of bounds.

Confusing huh!!!

Kelvin green · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 01, 2001, 11:59am

How can a play out of bounds be a live ball play? Once a ball goes OOB it's dead isn't it?

rdodom · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 01, 2001, 01:04pm

No! The ball is not dead until it touches something that is out of bounds, not when it crosses the sideline! A player is out of bounds and the play is dead when he lands out of bounds. A player may touch a player out of bounds and still be inbounds!

The point I'm making is that it really has nothing with it being out of bounds. What makes any live ball dead?

1: When a runner is tackled and his forward progress has been stopped or is tackled so that anything, other than his hand or foot, touches the ground, the play is over and the ball is dead. We blow the whistle to signal the ball is dead and the play is over (hopefully).

2: When a runner is tackled towards the sideline, the play is over and the ball is dead when the player with the ball hits the ground out of bounds.

Either way, the ball is dead and the play is over when the runner is stopped or hits the gound in both cases. Just like when a runner's knee hits the ground, the play is over and the ball is dead.

In no. 1, if the runner is tackled and slammed to the ground, a personal foul can be called on the tackler. If this is true, why can't the same call be made on a tackle that lands out of bounds, since the play isn't over until the runner hits the ground. The action of the tackler during the tackle is what makes it a personal foul. The tackler di nothing to the runner after he hit the ground, only during the actual tackle!

[Edited by rdodom on Oct 1st, 2001 at 02:05 PM]

BktBallRef · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Oct 01, 2001, 05:02pm

What would type of penalty would you call in this situation? Are you saying you're going to flag a player for tackling someone too hard? There's nothing illegal about "slamming" a player to the ground during a tackle. That is, it's not illegal unless it occurs during a dead ball or violates some other rule such as a face mask violation.

Unless he's "slammed" after the ball becomes dead, I'm not going to have a penalty because a player got takcled too hard. Just my personal opinion.

rdodom · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 02, 2001, 07:57am

"BktBallRef", good point! I've never called it either! At least I don't think I have! I can see it being called on someone who nailed an opponent obviously out of the play. I don't remember if I've called that one either during a live ball or not, hell I'm getting to old and doing this so long I can't remember.

The official saw something that looked liked "unnecessary roughness", I suppose. Wasn't there and didn't make the call!

Maybe Coach Merritt can get an answer from the official who called it and let us know!

BktBallRef · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 02, 2001, 08:38am

I think the DBF call was probably correct. I think the coach was really trying to understand why he didn't get to run another play. He didn't understand that once 4th down is over, the opponent gets the ball, even though they committed a DBF.

rdodom · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 02, 2001, 10:04am

Whoops, reading something into the question?

Coachmerritt · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Oct 02, 2001, 12:34pm

Slamming a player to the ground after stopping his forward progress (in bounds or out) IS by the rule (illegal personal contact) illegal...according to the rulebook I have.

In my case the White hat had originally awarded us an untimed down but called "dead ball" personal foul. There wasn't really opposition to the free down until another ref who was in street clothes...(yes street clothes..don't get me started on that one!) stepped in and told the side judge that in this case the period should not be extended that it didn't meet the criteria. That ref called a conference......white hat changed his mind....halftime.

In my opinion there should be no difference between slamming a player down to finish off the tackle in bounds or out..as long as the initial contact was made in bounds.
It definitely was a good flag to throw I just feel it was enforced incorrectly.