Kneel

fonzzy07 · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 04, 2006, 11:46pm

Had an incident today. Home team down by 6 with 45 seconds left. They onside and fail. Away team goes to take a kneel. The R tells players hands off its a kneel. The offense just stands up . Well sure enough they fumble the snap. Away team recovers. They end up driving it down to the 4 then run out of time. Do you tell players hands off for a kneel and if so does this seem like the right thing to do?

JS63 · #2 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2006, 12:48am

As an umpire I tell them, "IF you see them kneel, Stop." Then when I am sure he has kneeled I run in and yell, "STOP, STOP, STOP!" It stops them better than a whistle.

jjb · #3 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2006, 10:45am

The R was wrong. I would never tell a player "hands off". That's the same as saying not to participate. When the Kneel is evident, the line judge and linesmen should tighten in. Let the play progress as normal and wait until the knee is on the ground before blowing. Telling team B to relax can lead to problems that you don't need.

Rich · #4 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2006, 12:47pm

When A tells me they are going to take a knee, I close in and carefully watch for the snap. Once it's clear the snap is cleanly handled by the QB, I blow my whistle killing the play.

I've been told that once in a while I'm beating the quarterback's knee to the ground, but so what?

jontheref · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2006, 01:13pm

I split the difference between all of the comments previous to mine. I go to the line of scrimmage and tell the defense IF the qb takes a knee we aren't going to do anything stupid. They tend to understand what i am talking about. Then I tell the qb to get the snap and get down and I will be right behind him. I believe you have to say something to both sides because A the defense doesnt usually want to concede that they cant do anything...and B the likelihood of the QB actually knowing how to take a knee are usually remote.

The problem is that everyone sees the college guys and the pro guys take a snap and the qb stands there and then takes a knee and they figure we can do the same thing. Well guess what....they cant. Besides the liklihood of me running another play inside of 40 seconds is pretty remote particularly if I have a double digit lead.

PSU213 · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2006, 02:16pm

If a knee is probable (or A tells you they will take a knee) the R and U start the play tighter than they usually would. I NEVER tell them it will be a kneel down because of the instance in the OP. Telling them this is often construed as "don't play" or "don't try" on this play, meanwhile there could be a very good reason to try. That being said, need to "cool it" a bit, so if I'm inside I say "be smart." B is then reminded that we are there and watching, but we are not telling them what may (or may not) happen, and it can't come back on us if they did not try.

JasonTX · #7 (**permalink**) Sun Nov 05, 2006, 10:15pm

I don't say anything to either team. If the QB wants to take a knee then his linemen better block just as they would on any other play. There is nothing illegal about the defense going all out. I have had games where the defense busted through and stripped the ball before the QB could take a knee. Imagine if I would have told the defense to let up or something. This year I have been seeing a lot of teams take the snap from the shotgun and then take a knee.

Texas Aggie · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 12:22am

I don't have a problem saying, "if he takes a knee, don't hit him afterwards."

jjrye22 · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 02:43am

Interesting differences here overseas.
We have youth and adult tackle programs and the men's teams can get VERY difficult sometimes. The concept of sportsmanship and fair play sometimes take a backseat to ramming people into the ground and soccer style hooliganism.
The philosophy in our area (and I believe in all of Germany) is that if A says they are going to take a knee, no one should move. If B attacks, they will be penalized and most probably ejected (with concequences).
We need to do this to keep cheap shots from happening out of frustration. I've never seen someone fumble the snap on a kneeldown, but I expect we would just call the play dead anyways.

It's not the way I would like to do it, but it seems to be necessary with some of our teams.

Actually that is why I got into officiating. To try to show the kids here a little of what I learned growning up - fair play, respect for others (and self), how to win and lose with dignity. They don't really get it though... At least not in the short term, maybe I have an impact farther down the road when they have grown up... Who knows.

James

waltjp · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 07:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

I don't have a problem saying, "if he takes a knee, don't hit him afterwards."

This is similar to what I tell the players. I tell them that we're still playing football and remind them that if the ball carrier's knee is down the play is over.

Theisey · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 09:57am

I go along with Rich and PSU. We don't say anything, we pinch in a little and as soon as the ball is possessed on the snap, we are hard and loud on the whistle.
If someone on the defense choses to be a jerk, he's getting a flag Period! I could care less if he happens to get ejected. The game is over as far as team-A is concerned. End it peacefully or pay the price in next weeks game.

JugglingReferee · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 01:40pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fonzzy07

Had an incident today. Home team down by 6 with 45 seconds left. They onside and fail. Away team goes to take a kneel. The R tells players hands off its a kneel. The offense just stands up . Well sure enough they fumble the snap. Away team recovers. They end up driving it down to the 4 then run out of time. Do you tell players hands off for a kneel and if so does this seem like the right thing to do?

From what I've seen in Ontario, we tell the defense that the offense is taking a knee. The officials should and mostly do come in closer. If I'm R or U, I get quite close to the QB/C (~ 3 or 5 yards).

What is the purpose of taking a knee? I think one way of looking at it is that the offense is agreeing not to run a play. Why would they want to do that? They are agreeing not to run a play where they might score. However, if the offense mishandles the taking of a knee, I think the ball is live and Team B can go for it. Team A takes a knee if they're winning as a sportmanship thing. Team B is not winning, and therefore want the ball. If there is a fumble, B should be able to go for it, and that A players still need to be aware that B might hit them.

So no, I would not tell B "hands off". I just tell them that A is taking a knee. The purpose being that unless there is a fumble, not to contact A.

MD Longhorn · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 02:09pm

If the game is more than 1 score apart in score, I usually simply tell the defense - "If he takes a knee, don't do anything stupid," and tell QB, "If you're taking a knee, get right down immediately." I've never had a problem with this, and if the ball does come lose, I've not jeopardized anyone.

If the game is within 1 score, however, I don't tell anyone anything, while having R and U pinch in a bit.

I think the game situation dictates your actions enough that a simple answer to this question does not apply to all situations. If the game was one where teams were already getting chippy with each other, I might consider some of the more strongly worded suggestions above.

Soonerump · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Nov 06, 2006, 05:20pm

The one time my WH told a defense to relax, the qb was going to kneel, the QB comes up to the line of scrimmage and takes the snap and quick pitches it to the left and the guy ran for a 75 yard touchdown. Team A was ahead by 17 points before this happened, but wanted to get more points in case a playoff spot came down to points scored. After that my WH never told a defense that the offense was going to take a knee.