Momentum question

[Rick KY]

You cannot catch or recover a ball in another player's possession, so the momentum rule must apply only to a loose ball.

[Opie]

Originally Posted by Rick KY

You cannot catch or recover a ball in another player's possession, so the momentum rule must apply only to a loose ball.

I understand your point Rick, and I think this is somewhat of a grey area because of the way the exception is worded. I remember a couple years ago when they changed the momentum to include fumbles as well as kicks and interceptions. I'm guessing this scenario didn't come into their minds when updating the rule.
I do believe the spirit of this rule does lean toward the exception applying here. I believe this rule is in place to prevent awarding a safety when a good defensive play has been made, as is the case here. The rule may not be worded as well as we would like, but we should understand the reasons behind the rules as well because it helps us be better officials.
Good discussion.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rick KY

You cannot catch or recover a ball in another player's possession, so the momentum rule must apply only to a loose ball.

Are you agreeing with me or arguing with me?

If arguing, explain to me how you are justifying a safety on this play ... what EXACTLY happens (even if only for a microsecond) to both give B the ball and disallow the momentum exception?

[Smiley]

What happens is B gains possession of the ball and runs it into the endzone. Because there was no catch or recovery involved, the momentum exception technically doesn't apply. Same as if the ball was handed to him and he ran into the endzone with it.

[sj]

If he would run into the end zone and be downed there then you would have a safety. Everything else would be moot. The momentum exception wouldn't apply because he decided to purposely run in there.

This play didn't happen to us but I saw one close to it on the youtube website. B1 took the ball away and his momentum took him in but he ran it back out and was tackled on the five or so. But it got me to thinking what if. Our crew decided it's a fumble and you would apply momentum.

[Smiley]

What if he was running full speed when he was handed the ball inside the 5 and his momentum carried him into the end zone.

[sj]

Are you saying A1 is going to just give the ball to B1?

[andy1033]

B took the ball away from a at the 2 yard line. this is considered a fumble. bean bag spot. Momentum carried him into end zone. put ball into play at the 2 year line..

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by sj

Are you saying A1 is going to just give the ball to B1?

Sure, by mistake obviously. Would this be any different than B taking the ball away?

[sj]

I was wondering for clarification. Maybe I'm seeing your point. Are you saying this? Since by definition you can only hand a ball to teammate there is no such thing as handing the ball to an opponent for rules' sake. Therefore this is also a fumble therefore momentum would apply in this play as well?

[Rick KY]

The momentum rule only applies to the catching of a ball in flight or recovery of a grounded ball, and this was niether. You could use the spirit of the rule to rule the same as if momentum had caused this. Sounds like a rewrite of the exception is in order.

[Smiley]

Originally Posted by sj

I was wondering for clarification. Maybe I'm seeing your point. Are you saying this? Since by definition you can only hand a ball to teammate there is no such thing as handing the ball to an opponent for rules' sake. Therefore this is also a fumble therefore momentum would apply in this play as well?

No, that's not what I am saying. I think we're stretching it to say that the momentum exception applies even though there is no "recovery". I wondered if we could stretch it even further by saying it applies even when there is no fumble, since a fumble is loss of possession other than handing, etc.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Rick KY

The momentum rule only applies to the catching of a ball in flight or recovery of a grounded ball, and this was niether. You could use the spirit of the rule to rule the same as if momentum had caused this. Sounds like a rewrite of the exception is in order.

Does the rule say grounded?

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Smiley

Sure, by mistake obviously. Would this be any different than B taking the ball away?

Even such a ridiculous scenario is technically a fumble. You can't HAND the ball to an opponent. And since even this is still a fumble, the exception applies - not just logically and legally, but by the likely intent of the rule as well.

[simpson]

NFHS 2006 Rule 8-5-2
It is a safety when:
a. A runner carries the ball ...blah-blah-blah
EXCEPTION: When a defensive player intercepts an opponent's forward pass; intercepts or recovers an opponnet's fumble or backward pass; or blah-blah-blah


The momentum exception did not originally include fumbles unless they were grounded. That was changed a couple years ago.

A couple of other key rules:
2-18
A fumble is any loss of player possession other than by handing, passing or legal kick.
2-19-1
Handing the ball is transferring player possession from one player to a teammate in blah-blah-blah

So ... the original play is a fumble and the momentum exception applies. 1&10 at the 2 yard line.