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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 09:41pm
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Question about fair catch

Please help me out with the following scenario:

R1 signals for a fair catch of a punt while the ball is in the air. The ball hits the ground several yards in front of R1 who then attempts to pick up the ball. K1 then creams him. What do you have?

My fellow officials say that R1 is still afforded protection and there should be a flag on K1. What is the difference between that and an onsides kick that has hit the ground? If R1 is standing at his free kick line and the kicking team attempts an onsides kick, can he signal for a fair catch if the kicker pops the ball up in the air by kicking the ball into the ground?

I would appreciate any answers you guys can give me. Thanks in advance.
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Old Tue Oct 03, 2006, 10:25pm
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A stab at it from the non-official:

No foul- R1 is given protection until the ball hits the ground. After that, you can obliterate him.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 08:24am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72
A stab at it from the non-official:

No foul- R1 is given protection until the ball hits the ground. After that, you can obliterate him.
Why would a non-official guess as to a specific rules answer?
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 08:44am
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When R gives a valid or invalid fair catch signal they are giving up their right to advance the ball whether is has been grounded or not. The player(s) who signal for a fair catch also forfeit their right to block until the kick has ended. The use of terms like 'creamed' and 'obliterate' lead me to believe that there could be a foul in this instance.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 11:40am
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In other words, once the ball has touched the ground, a KCI foul cannot occur. However, that does not mean that K cannot commit a Personal Foul or another type of illegal block.

As for the a FC signal on an onside kick, it is possible. However, that's usually why the kicker kicks the ball immediately into the ground and popping it up. By doing that, KCI cannot occur by rule and also it's a foul by R for an invalid FC signal if they signal for a FC after the ball has touched the ground. If this happens, remember that it will always be a PS foul as there is no PSK on free kicks so K can decline it or re-kick it. R will not get the ball if K accepts an invalid FC signal on a FK.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 11:45am
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KCI on k at the spot of the infraction. It doesn't matter if the ball has touched the ground or not. If R cannot block nor advance the ball after a legal, illegal or invalid fair catch signal is given, then K cannot tackle him.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 11:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker227
KCI on k at the spot of the infraction. It doesn't matter if the ball has touched the ground or not. If R cannot block nor advance the ball after a legal, illegal or invalid fair catch signal is given, then K cannot tackle him.
booker227 - you need to read rule 6.5.6. You can only have KCI when the ball is in flight.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 11:57am
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booker,
That's not correct. KCI simply cannot occur after the ball has been grounded. See 6-5-6 and 2-1-3. though you are correct that if R1 has given a FC signal, then they cannot block during the down (actually "until the kick has ended" but they're technically the same thing if a valid or invalid FC signal has been given, unless the SK is recovered behind the NZ).

K may or may not be able to tackle R1. At the very least, it could be nothing (R1 simulating being a runner) though that's not very likely. More likely it would be holding, and at worst it would be a Personal Foul or an illegal block (like a BBW). However, it's not KCI--it simply can't be after the ball has touched the ground. Remember, KCI comes with special enforcement rules and it's important that these aren't part of the penalty process if it's not KCI.

Last edited by DJ_NV; Wed Oct 04, 2006 at 06:02pm.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 11:59am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booker227
KCI on k at the spot of the infraction. It doesn't matter if the ball has touched the ground or not. If R cannot block nor advance the ball after a legal, illegal or invalid fair catch signal is given, then K cannot tackle him.
REPLY: It might be a personal foul, but it can't be KCI. KCI is defined in NF 6-5-6 and it clearly says that the prohibition against interfering with R's attempt to catch the free or scrimmage kick applies only while the kick is in flight.

Sorry DJ_NV...you beat me by a couple of minutes.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 12:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ_NV
... if R1 has given a FC signal, then they cannot block during the down (actually "until the kick has ended" but they're technically the same thing if a valid or invalid FC signal has been given)....
Can anyone give an example of when the kick ends prior to the end of the down when a fair catch signal has been given? I have one, but want to see if anyone has a different one.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 12:35pm
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Iw

IWs are bad bad bad
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 12:43pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue37
Can anyone give an example of when the kick ends prior to the end of the down when a fair catch signal has been given? I have one, but want to see if anyone has a different one.
REPLY: If K recovers a scrimmage kick behind the neutral zone. Do I win the prize?

BTW...this is the express reason that the signaler is prohibited from blocking before the kick ends, rather than before the down ends.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 01:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
Why would a non-official guess as to a specific rules answer?
Cause that's what coaches do the best?!?!
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 01:11pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob M.
REPLY: If K recovers a scrimmage kick behind the neutral zone. Do I win the prize?

BTW...this is the express reason that the signaler is prohibited from blocking before the kick ends, rather than before the down ends.
Again, as usual, you da man.

If the giver of the fair catch signal could not participate until the down ends, he could not make the tackle on a member of the kicking team who recovers a kick behind the line and advances.
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Old Wed Oct 04, 2006, 07:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
Why would a non-official guess as to a specific rules answer?

I'm just learning, Rich...
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