Benefit of the doubt

[Rich]

We had a play last night I'd like feedback on:

Two big schools. All 3 local network channels have TV cameras there. This is important (later).

Runner goes around left end. He's nearing the goal line. I'm R and looking in that general direction, but not really paying attention since I'm cleaning up the line play.

I saw the pylon go over. I thought the runner had hit the pylon. My L spots the ball on the 1-yard line. No big deal, I figured the pylon may have gotten kicked over, and my L is a top-notch official, so he saw what he saw.

I found out at halftime that the runner fumbled the ball. All I said last night in the lockerroom was -- in a joking manner -- I hope the ball wasn't what hit the pylon.

So I sat down and watched the local highlights (I TiVo all three news broadcasts) and one of them had this very play.

The ball did shoot out of the runners hand, and after 4 stop action replays I was able to determine that the ball did not knock the pylon over, but rather it was the runner's hand AFTER the ball came out. It's clear the ball came out a good half-second before the pylon went down and the stop action was simply to see whether it was the ball or the hand that knocked the pylon over. The ball wouldn't have flattened the pylon in that manner, hence it had to be the hand hitting it.

Of course, this brought another question. Did the ball go OVER the pylon or outside it. And even with the back of the endzone shot, the best one imaginable for this play, I wouldn't bet my life in either direction. Heck, I'd probably flip a coin, it was that close.

So, which way does the benefit of the doubt swing on this? I mean, it's a harsh penalty (touchback) if you rule it out in the endzone, but then again, the runner DID fumble.

Actually, this is a hypothetical based on a real situation since I had a wing right there and he made the call immediately.

[wisref2]

This is a really good discussion topic - think I'll steal it for our association meeting this week.

My initial thoughts - if you don't know for sure, go with the out-of-bounds. I base this on two things I learned in a clinic this year - don't complicate the game and don't be hero (thanks SWOA of Madison, Wisconsin for a great clinic).

The touchback is a huge call - too huge to make if you don't know for sure.

Oh, and just to be clear - here are some examples of the two theories stated above:
Don't complicate the game - on a pass, there is a catch, a hit and a drop. Is it a fumble or incomplete pass? Don't complicate the game - rule it incomplete.

Don't be a hero - punt coming down near the goal line, the receiver is standing on the goal line and signals for a fair catch. Did the ball break the plane? Don't be a "hero" and mark the ball on the six inch line - call it a touchback.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by wisref2

This is a really good discussion topic - think I'll steal it for our association meeting this week.

My initial thoughts - if you don't know for sure, go with the out-of-bounds. I base this on two things I learned in a clinic this year - don't complicate the game and don't be hero (thanks SWOA of Madison, Wisconsin for a great clinic).

The touchback is a huge call - too huge to make if you don't know for sure.

Oh, and just to be clear - here are some examples of the two theories stated above:
Don't complicate the game - on a pass, there is a catch, a hit and a drop. Is it a fumble or incomplete pass? Don't complicate the game - rule it incomplete.

Don't be a hero - punt coming down near the goal line, the receiver is standing on the goal line and signals for a fair catch. Did the ball break the plane? Don't be a "hero" and mark the ball on the six inch line - call it a touchback.

I have my own opinion on the hypothetical, but I'll hold it until the thread takes off (or not).

I didn't make the SWOA clinic this season, but I have attended and have been a clinician. Good clinic and good association.

BTW, the fumbler last night played for a Madison high school.

[Forksref]

Rich,

My first reaction to the play was, "Where is the wing? We need to talk."

I would agree that it is too big a play to make it a touchback if you are not sure. The ball was fumbled. It was not recovered by B. It went OOB. We aren't 100% sure that it went into the EZ. This leads me to say we will rule it OOB before it reached the pylon.

[Forksref]

Rich,

My first reaction to the play was, "Where is the wing? We need to talk."

I would agree that it is too big a play to make it a touchback if you are not sure. The ball was fumbled. It was not recovered by B. It went OOB. We aren't 100% sure that it went into the EZ. This leads me to say we will rule it OOB before it reached the pylon.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Forksref

Rich,

My first reaction to the play was, "Where is the wing? We need to talk."

I would agree that it is too big a play to make it a touchback if you are not sure. The ball was fumbled. It was not recovered by B. It went OOB. We aren't 100% sure that it went into the EZ. This leads me to say we will rule it OOB before it reached the pylon.

I did call the wing over and talk to him. He did not mention the fumble (not sure why), but said that the ball did NOT hit the pylon and the play was out of bounds short of the endzone. The problem is that I didn't know what question to ask -- I didn't know the runner fumbled the football.

It will be a pregame discussion for next week and I have a copy of the play in question to use when we gather to watch our game videos (we have 4 so far and have watched 2 of them).

[Kirby]

Rich,

How do you get your game videos? Do you ask one of the schools for a copy or do you have somebody else video for you? Are the schools usually ok with sending the video to you or do they hesitate at all?

Don't want to hijack your thread as this is a very interesting discussion.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Rich,

How do you get your game videos? Do you ask one of the schools for a copy or do you have somebody else video for you? Are the schools usually ok with sending the video to you or do they hesitate at all?

Don't want to hijack your thread as this is a very interesting discussion.

My crew emails the athletic director of the home team on Monday -- to coordinate arrival time, parking, etc. We don't have an assigning association, so it's up to us to make contact with the school.

In that email I ask if the team will send us a tape or DVD of the game. I make sure that the AD is aware that we will hand him or the site manager a self-addressed stamped envelope with a blank VHS tape or DVD-R (depending on what they use to make game tapes) when we arrive. I make sure the AD knows we're doing it to improve the crew -- they know the value of game tapes and many are impressed we want to use tape to improve. But how else do you?

We get almost all of them back and nobody's turned us down up front.

--Rich

[cougar729]

I have used friends or just other officials, usually the schools are good at letting someone get in the pressbox to tape it, but there are a few who dont, I think the national federation and state associations should help officials by letting schools know that by helping officials with game tape, they are helping officials better themselves

[NickelDeuce]

I totally agree with everything Wisref had to say. That was a good post.

As far as the play goes, my take is just like everyone elses. If you're not sure, mark it out of bounds. But if you are sure the ball goes over the pylon the you step up and make the big call.

[Mack10]

Is your spot where the runner went out of bounds with the ball, or is the spot where the ball went out of bounds by itself? a) The runner could have fumbled, with the ball going out bounds at the 1, and the runner continuing on (inbounds or out) to hit the pylon. b) The runner could have gone out of bounds at the 1 (e.g. stepped on the line) ... with the ball coming loose (no fumble since it's now dead) ... and the runner continuing on to hit the pylon.
c) as you indicate, somebody else could have hit the pylon.

In all cases, sounds like the wing made the right call. If I'm the wing, I'm going to tell you why I called what I called.

[wisref2]

Originally Posted by Kirby

Rich,

How do you get your game videos? Do you ask one of the schools for a copy or do you have somebody else video for you? Are the schools usually ok with sending the video to you or do they hesitate at all?

Don't want to hijack your thread as this is a very interesting discussion.

We bring a video tape in a stamped, self-addressed envelope to every game and give it to the AD (or whoever meets us). Last season, we got 100% of the tapes back. This year, only one school has failed to return the tape.

I include a letter asking for feedback. I don't usually get any, but when I do, it's usually pretty helpful.