Verbal deception on A

[claude]

I had this one tonight. All 11 A players break huddle and come set in a legal formation. The coach is screaming for one of the backs to get off of the field saying "there is one too many out there". One of the backs are about 5 yards from his sideline when the ball is snapped and goes out for a pass which is incomplete. It kind of caught me offgaurd. Should I have blown this dead at the snap? I gave a 15 UC penalty

[Theisey]

Claude: this play is just like the "where's the tee" play.
By all means, bang the coach with a 15 yard (UC) penalty.

I know some will disagree, but I would kill the play just as the case book says for the "where's the tee" play.

When are these coaches gonna stop trying to pull this crap.

[Snake~eyes]

Next up.... USC for hard count - after all he's using "verbal deception"

[Middleman]

Originally Posted by Theisey

Claude: this play is just like the "where's the tee" play.
By all means, bang the coach with a 15 yard (UC) penalty.

I know some will disagree, but I would kill the play just as the case book says for the "where's the tee" play.

When are these coaches gonna stop trying to pull this crap.

Rather than Unsportsmanlike Conduct, I'd call this Illegal Participation, 9-6-4d. We see extra/replaced players trying to hustle off the field before the snap all the time. In this case the defense is illegally duped into believing the player is leaving the field, but it does not necessarily cause the defense to believe that the snap is not imminent (which is the essential component of the "Where's the tee?" play). Make it a live ball foul and call back the TD.

Of course, if you are intent on hanging Unsportsmanlike Conduct number 1 on the coach, you can. Then he's half way out the gate. Surely you can find an illegally equipped player (e.g., knee pads don't cover the knee) for number 2.

[Sonofanump]

Jim,

Thanks.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Middleman

Rather than Unsportsmanlike Conduct, I'd call this Illegal Participation, 9-6-4d. We see extra/replaced players trying to hustle off the field before the snap all the time. In this case the defense is illegally duped into believing the player is leaving the field, but it does not necessarily cause the defense to believe that the snap is not imminent (which is the essential component of the "Where's the tee?" play). Make it a live ball foul and call back the TD.

Of course, if you are intent on hanging Unsportsmanlike Conduct number 1 on the coach, you can. Then he's half way out the gate. Surely you can find an illegally equipped player (e.g., knee pads don't cover the knee) for number 2.

REPLY: Except that the Federation Case Book specifically addresses the "Where's the tee" or "We've got the wrong ball" type of play on page 78 in 9.9.3 Situation B and specifically rules it as USC prior to the snap. Therefore the play will not start in theory. The 'comment' explains what the Fed believes the 'dupe' really is--and it's not substitution.

[ToGreySt]

I had this play in a JV game this week. 4th and 5, A lines up and one of the players on A yells "PUNT, PUNT!" and then they snap the ball and run the ball up the middle for a first down, the WH flags them for an "unfair act" because it made the defence send someone deep to field the punt.

seems very similar to the OP situation, any comments?

Joe

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by ToGreySt

I had this play in a JV game this week. 4th and 5, A lines up and one of the players on A yells "PUNT, PUNT!" and then they snap the ball and run the ball up the middle for a first down, the WH flags them for an "unfair act" because it made the defence send someone deep to field the punt.

seems very similar to the OP situation, any comments?

Joe

I guess the offense seen something in the defense and had an audible, which is perfectly legal to do.

[ref49873]

Originally Posted by ToGreySt

I had this play in a JV game this week. 4th and 5, A lines up and one of the players on A yells "PUNT, PUNT!" and then they snap the ball and run the ball up the middle for a first down, the WH flags them for an "unfair act" because it made the defence send someone deep to field the punt.

seems very similar to the OP situation, any comments?

Joe

I don't see any problem with this. It is really no different than an audible at the LOS. The defense should stay alert for play changes and we as officials should not bail them out when they guess wrong.

[Mike L]

One must remember that there is a great difference between actions that make it seem play is not about to happen (not legal) vs actions that make it seem a specific type of play may or may not happen (legal).

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by ToGreySt

I had this play in a JV game this week. 4th and 5, A lines up and one of the players on A yells "PUNT, PUNT!" and then they snap the ball and run the ball up the middle for a first down, the WH flags them for an "unfair act" because it made the defence send someone deep to field the punt.

seems very similar to the OP situation, any comments?

Joe

And just as wrong as the OP. Totally legal.