Coin Toss Options

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: I don't look at it as a captain having four choices. It's actually a two-tiered set of options:

This is the Canadian method. It's been in our book for a long time. It prevents many hiccups.

[RoyGardner]

As I posted earlier, I agree 100%. The option process should be handled as 2 parts:

1. Use option now or defer?

2. Then depending on 1. offer the 2nd option.

In any case, based on original scenario, I would have taken the response to mean: We will defer our option to the 2nd half, when opponent elects to take ball this half, we want to defend X goal."

[NJRefJohn]

... I had a very interesting jr. high school game last night. I laid out the 4 choices, the away team captain upon winning the toss said, "We want to kick." I asked, "Is that what choice you want to make?"
"Yes."
"Are you sure you don't mean 'defer'?"
"No, we want to kick."
"You may want to ask your coach for help with this. If you kick now, that means you will most likely kick now AND starting the second half."
He looked at his coach, and the coach said, "We want to kick."
"Ok then."

At the beginning of the second half, score 0-0, the home team stated they wanted the ball. When I asked the away team which way he wanted to kick, the coach said he wanted the ball. After a conversation that went on for what seemed like 15 minutes (I'm sure it was really a minute), the coach still was not getting the idea. He kept saying, "I thought if we kick in the 1st half that we get the ball in the 2nd half."

Hopefully it was a lesson learned for him.

[RonRef]

Originally Posted by NJRefJohn

... I had a very interesting jr. high school game last night. I laid out the 4 choices, the away team captain upon winning the toss said, "We want to kick." I asked, "Is that what choice you want to make?"
"Yes."
"Are you sure you don't mean 'defer'?"
"No, we want to kick."
"You may want to ask your coach for help with this. If you kick now, that means you will most likely kick now AND starting the second half."
He looked at his coach, and the coach said, "We want to kick."
"Ok then."

At the beginning of the second half, score 0-0, the home team stated they wanted the ball. When I asked the away team which way he wanted to kick, the coach said he wanted the ball. After a conversation that went on for what seemed like 15 minutes (I'm sure it was really a minute), the coach still was not getting the idea. He kept saying, "I thought if we kick in the 1st half that we get the ball in the 2nd half."

Hopefully it was a lesson learned for him.

That is why this coach is coaching at the JR HS level! A rule book costs less than $10!

[NJRefJohn]

Agreed! An investment of great worth it!

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by glyphrunner

Let's put it this way, we've had things like this happen before where a kid was told a very specific thing by his coach and he got confused. His options were explained clearly and then he made a different choice. His coach then blew up saying we had convinced his captain otherwise.

Our policy is to not influence the players' decisions. We are not there to decide what happens in the game.

You are there as part of the educational process. And by letting him do something that you know is stupid without taking a minimal amount of effort on your part to be sure he really wants to be stupid, seems almost like dereliction of duty to me. And if you had done as some suggest (i.e. confer with the coach before the toss) you would know what he intended anyway.

[Ref inSoCA]

Originally Posted by glyphrunner

Let's put it this way, we've had things like this happen before where a kid was told a very specific thing by his coach and he got confused. His options were explained clearly and then he made a different choice. His coach then blew up saying we had convinced his captain otherwise.

Our policy is to not influence the players' decisions. We are not there to decide what happens in the game.

It is the coaches' job to coach their players and our job to be impartial.

I started officiating before we became the self-esteem police. In a Varsity game I don't ask the coach what he wants. That's the Captains' job as he has instructed them. If a 17 yr old kid can't make the right decision, it's not my fault.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Ref inSoCA

It is the coaches' job to coach their players and our job to be impartial.

I started officiating before we became the self-esteem police. In a Varsity game I don't ask the coach what he wants. That's the Captains' job as he has instructed them. If a 17 yr old kid can't make the right decision, it's not my fault.

Then it's time to adjust to 21st century officiating, isn't it?

[RoyGardner]

It's interesting that when we have trouble with a rule we complain about conflicting rules, too many rules, and obtuse language, yet there seems to be some of us that want a 17 year old player to sort out the mumbo jumbo of the coin toss wording in the rule book.

The actual process requires two distinct choices:

1. Use option (choose now for 1st half or defer to the 2nd half)

then after that decision is made the 2nd option:

2. Decide receive, kick, or defend a goal with opponent probably still getting to choose end to defend

I see absolutely no reason to let this get screwed up simply because we know how this works and we're not going to make sure that everyone else does. IMO this is one case where getting it right (according to the rules) is not enough. Don't let a team make a mistake here, and before accepting what looks like a "confused choice" make sure that team understands that they may end up not getting ball in either half.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by glyphrunner

Let's put it this way, we've had things like this happen before where a kid was told a very specific thing by his coach and he got confused. His options were explained clearly and then he made a different choice. His coach then blew up saying we had convinced his captain otherwise.

Our policy is to not influence the players' decisions. We are not there to decide what happens in the game.

No, you're not there to influence their decisions. You're there to insure that the game is fair for both teams. Make all the excuses you want, you didn't do that.

The young man said that he wanted to defer. He's not stupid so he knows the other team will elect to receive. So it went ahead and told you that they would defend the west goal. But no, your white hat had to show everyone how smart he is.

That's just plain over officious officiating. Glad I'm not on that crew.

[waltjp]

BktBallRef is correct. This is just trying to prove how smart you are. If a captain tells me that he is electing to kick to start the game I try to explain that they probably won't get the ball to start the second half either.

If you allow a team to mistakenly elect to kick you're just setting yourself up for a sh*tstorm to start the second half.

[JasonTX]

I had a 7th grade game and you'd know that while standing on the sideline the coach is going over the options with his captain. He tells him if they win the toss that they want to kick. I explained to them that if they kicked then they'd most likely be kicking the 2nd half as well since the other team would get the 2nd half choices. I told them if they truly wanted to kick then the best option would be to defer. So, they won the toss and elected to defer. Sometimes even the coaches need a little help.

[wisref2]

Just last night, winning captain elects to kick. I repeat his options and he says he wants to kick. I asked "are you sure?" and he says he wants to kick.

After the coin toss - I went to the coach to make sure he understood what happened and he said his captain did what he (the coach) wanted - he wanted to kick!

I never did ask why he didn't just defer.

I always give options in this order, "defer, receive, kick or defend a goal." I don't disagree with those who don't give all the options, but I figure captians and coaches have to take some responsibility for knowing what the heck to do!

[NJRefJohn]

Hey Walt - think of anything "witty" yet?

[Indy_Stu]

3-2-3 is pretty clear; I can't see how we as officials continue to make this so difficult. Bob M. is correct; it is actually a two-tiered set of choices.

"The winner of the toss shall have first choice of options for the first half or to defer and have first choice for the second half."

There are actually two options to start each half, and they are the same before Q1 and before Q3. It is the right to wait to the second half to choose one of these two options when “defer” is used by the winner of the coin toss.

"The options for each half shall be:
a. To choose whether his team will kick or receive.
b. To choose the goal his team will defend.
The captain not having the first choice of options for a half shall exercise the remaining option."

I always ask winner of toss if they want to defer choice to second half, or make a choice now. Then I ask the appropriate captain if they want “to receive or kick, (slight pause to take a breath) or you can choose which goal to defend.” Very seldom - - maybe never? - - has the same team kicked off to start each half in any of our crew’s varsity games. However, there could be a situation (inclement weather) that gives the coin-toss-winning-deferring team an advantage by kicking off twice. That is the advantage of deferring, you have the choice closer to the situation you are about to put yourself into.