Delay on the Defense?

[RonRef]

This play happen last night in our college jv game.

After a punt the offense is out on the field in their huddle and defense is on the sideline huddling, we blow the ready for play and start the game clock the offense rushes to the LOS to snap the ball and the defense is still on the sideline. My question is do we stop the offense and wait for the defense to get set, do we throw a delay a game on the defense? With the new timing in the NCAA what if this happens in the last 15 seconds of the game, how long to we wait for the defense? This could be a good play for the defense to run sometime off the clock and put the offense at a disadvantage.

The rule in the book states:

Found this in the rulebook AR 3-5-2 V page FI 16.

After a change of team possession or any timeout, the ball is declared ready for play. When Team A has completed its offensive formation, Team B must promptly position its personnel. Team B will be allowed time to complete substitutions. RULING: Either team is subject to a delay-of-game foul -- Team B for not completing its substitutions promptly (Rule 3-4-2-b-3) or Team A for causing the 25-second clock to expire. Penalty—Five yards from the succeeding spot.

[JasonTX]

You have uncovered another example why the new rule is bad. Perhaps the thing to do is wait until the defense has lined up before starting the clock. If they continue to delay, then flagging them may be the thing to do. Unfair game-clock tactics? I suppose and then you can start the clock on the snap. If the offense is the one that is delaying then just wind the clock.

[RoyGardner]

We had some discussion related to this during a junior college scrimmage (NCAA rules) Friday night. While B is clearly entitled to a reasonable delay to substitute in response to A's substitutions, if A's 11 players are already on the field and in their huddle, ready to go, then IMO B is causing the delay.

We discussed keeping the U over the ball until B is lined up while keeping an eye on the 25 second clock (not allowing A to snap if B is not lined up). If the 25 second clock gets down to 5 or less seconds, then blow & throw and charge B with DOG.

[simpson]

Originally Posted by RonRef

we blow the ready for play and start the game clock the offense rushes to the LOS to snap the ball and the defense is still on the sideline.

What part of "Ready for Play" is confusing? If the Whitehat is not ready for play, don't blow the ready for play. If the Defense is on the sideline, don't start the game clock and play clock. If you blow the Ready for Play, the offense should be able to snap the ball.

Roy, what justification is there to wait until 5 seconds on the play clock before allowing A to snap the ball? If you guys need to penalize B for not coming out of a timeout in a timely fashion, do so, but don't start the playclock and deny A the right to snap the ball.

[mcrowder]

Under no circumstances can you blow the RFP unless you are going to let the offense run the play. If you have a delay in allowing you to blow the RFP and that delay is caused by unnecessarily slow readiness by the defense, then by all means flag them for delay. But I can't stress this enough - there is NO circumstance in which the RFP should be blown while you're not willing to allow the offense to run the play.

[TXMike]

There are many times when the RFP is blown but we are not going to let A snap. If they sub players, which they most always do after a change of possession, then B must be given a chance to matchup. They have to do so in a timely fashion or face the prospect of a DOG penalty. We instruct the U's to get up on the ball and not permit A to snap while the play clock continues to tick down. I would not support the DOG penalty against B unless the play clock actually expired while the U was over the ball. (NCAA)

[RoyGardner]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Under no circumstances can you blow the RFP unless you are going to let the offense run the play. If you have a delay in allowing you to blow the RFP and that delay is caused by unnecessarily slow readiness by the defense, then by all means flag them for delay. But I can't stress this enough - there is NO circumstance in which the RFP should be blown while you're not willing to allow the offense to run the play.

Our board mechanic when A or B is obviously delaying after a COP and not sending substitute players in from sideline huddle has always been as I stated earlier. After a "this is not a timeout" warning, we will give RFP and if B does not respond immediately to RFP and send players into the game then we stay over ball preventing A from snapping without B in place, but will call a DOG if play clock runs down and B has not immediately responded to original RFP and has players in place well before play clock runs down. It's exactly the same mechanic that we would use if A is delaying on the sideline and we have the ball set and the chains ready. In that case we would give the RFP but allow B to change personnel based on A's incoming players and allow B a reasonable amount of time to complete that substitution process with U still over ball. If the play clock runs out and B has not had reasonable time to complete substituting, such that U has moved back to his position then the DOG belongs to A.

I've never seen (in a game I've been in) a DOG called against either team during the COP substitution process without the RFP having been previously given.

Now, since under current NCAA rules the game clock will in most cases also be running during this time, I'm not sure if we will continue the same way or modify our procedures and flag A or B for delay without having given the RFP.

[RonRef]

We called Mr. Adams, the NCAA football rules editor, and he stated that we can't give the ready for play (or start the game clock) until the defense is on the field, period! Have the umpire stand over the ball.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by RoyGardner

Our board mechanic when A or B is obviously delaying after a COP and not sending substitute players in from sideline huddle has always been as I stated earlier. After a "this is not a timeout" warning, we will give RFP and if B does not respond immediately to RFP and send players into the game then we stay over ball preventing A from snapping without B in place, but will call a DOG if play clock runs down and B has not immediately responded to original RFP and has players in place well before play clock runs down. It's exactly the same mechanic that we would use if A is delaying on the sideline and we have the ball set and the chains ready. In that case we would give the RFP but allow B to change personnel based on A's incoming players and allow B a reasonable amount of time to complete that substitution process with U still over ball. If the play clock runs out and B has not had reasonable time to complete substituting, such that U has moved back to his position then the DOG belongs to A.

I've never seen (in a game I've been in) a DOG called against either team during the COP substitution process without the RFP having been previously given.

Now, since under current NCAA rules the game clock will in most cases also be running during this time, I'm not sure if we will continue the same way or modify our procedures and flag A or B for delay without having given the RFP.

Roy, you might have been able to get away with this mechanic at lower level Mass HS games in the past, and I confess that in the middle of a lower level game where timing is not as crucial, I've been on crews that did the same.

However, you should never do this in an actual NCAA game or at HS Varsity. (Even last year, before the new rules) And with the new rules, if your state is using them for HS (Texas is not), you shouldn't do this if timing is important (end of halves, etc). RFP means exactly that - Ready For Play. With the new rule, we will need to be cleaner with this even at lower levels, and especially when the game clock matters.

As to the quick sub question - that is akin to rushing subs in in between plays and trying to run a play before defense can bring in their own, and I would penalize a COP situation where offensive subs were brought in late and offense tried to snap before defense could adjust just as I would a hurry-up offense where subs were rushed in. (And even in these situations, you do NOT stand over the ball after RFP is blown).

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Remember if the defense is just being a pain- not coming out- and you decide to flag them for delay, you march off 5 yards AND move the chains since the penalty was before the RFP.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

Remember if the defense is just being a pain- not coming out- and you decide to flag them for delay, you march off 5 yards AND move the chains since the penalty was before the RFP.

Not in NCAA. The cutoff for moving the chains (or offsetting DBF's for example) is not the RFP. Once you've announced and marked off any relevant fouls (not an issue in the OP), and set the chains, any DBF after this does NOT reset the chains.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Not in NCAA. The cutoff for moving the chains (or offsetting DBF's for example) is not the RFP. Once you've announced and marked off any relevant fouls (not an issue in the OP), and set the chains, any DBF after this does NOT reset the chains.

What about 5-2-7?

The penalty for any dead-ball foul (including live-ball fouls penalized as dead-ball fouls and fouls after a free kick down) incurred after a series ends and before the next ready-for-play signal shall be enforced before the line to gain is established. The penalty for any dead-ball foul incurred after the ready-for-play signal shall be enforced after the line to gain is established.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by AndrewMcCarthy

What about 5-2-7?

The penalty for any dead-ball foul (including live-ball fouls penalized as dead-ball fouls and fouls after a free kick down) incurred after a series ends and before the next ready-for-play signal shall be enforced before the line to gain is established. The penalty for any dead-ball foul incurred after the ready-for-play signal shall be enforced after the line to gain is established.

Mmmm. Good point. I was leaning on the wrong rule. Since you set me straight here, I'm sure this will happen tonight.