Starting the clock - clarification

[kentref]

From the NFHS casebook, page 20, 3.4.2 Situation D:

K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards. During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R accepts the foul. RULING: After enforcement, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal. (3-4-2b3)

First question: Does it make any difference, in terms of when the clock starts on the next play, when K's foul occurs? Does PSK figure into this in any way (in terms of the clock status)?

The NFHS Rules Study Guide has the following statement:

When administration of a penalty is one of the reasons for stopping the clock, the decision to start the clock is made on the following principle: the clock should start just as it would if the foul had not occurred. The one exception is an accepted penalty for delay of game, after which the clock always starts on the snap.

Why does this principle not apply to the aforementioned caseplay?
In other words, if the holding foul had not occurred it would be a new series for R and the clock would obviously start on the snap.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

This is actually a surprisingly tough question. The rule the casebook refers to, 3-4-2b3: "The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped: ... b. Because the ball has become dead following a foul provided: ... 3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to stop." The clock stops at the end of this down anyway(*), so 3-4-2b3 will not cause it to start on the RFP.

The counter-argument says that the clock cannot start on the snap, citing 3-4-3: "The clock shall start with the snap ... if the clock was stopped because: ... b. B is awarded a new series. c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick." No new series is actually awarded here, so we can't start the clock on the snap, either. Now what?

The catch is the statement that I marked with a (*) earlier. 3-4-4 tells us when the clock should be stopped: "The clock shall be stopped when: a. The down ends following a foul. b. An official's time-out is taken. ..." The only reason the clock stops here is an official's time-out (see 3-5-7c). So the rule we really need to be looking at is 3-4-3a: "[Clock starts on RFP if it was stopped] For an official's time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a free kick." Since there is no new series being awarded (see 5-1-2), this rule tells us to start the clock on the RFP.

All that said, what I'd like to see is a rule that says straight out that fouls (other than delay of game) are ignored when considering when to start the clock on the next play.

[kentref]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

All that said, what I'd like to see is a rule that says straight out that fouls (other than delay of game) are ignored when considering when to start the clock on the next play.
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I completely agree with your last statement - that type of rule would make it clear.
This may be one of those times where I'm reading too much into a situation, but your statement (above) gets to what the Rules Study Guide says, but then there are case plays (like the one I quoted) that go against the statement.

[MJT]

Originally Posted by The Roamin' Umpire

The only reason the clock stops here is an official's time-out (see 3-5-7c).[/FONT][/FONT] So the rule we really need to be looking at is 3-4-3a: [FONT=Courier New]"[Clock starts on RFP if it was stopped] For an official's time-out, other than when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a free kick."[FONT=Verdana] Since there is no new series being awarded (see 5-1-2), this rule tells us to start the clock on the RFP.

I think this part of your statement is the one that gets us to the answer. That is what I was thinking of as well. B is not starting series so we go back to what really stopped the clock, which was the officials TO. If we had not had that, we'd go on the RFP, so that is what we do.

What I dont like is how the question says "he returns it 10 yards." It does not say he is downed in the field of play or if he ran OOB's to end the runback. If he ran OOB's then that is what killed the clock and we'd start it on the snap for A's next play.

[Jaysef]

Butting in here, but can you explain why this is NOT a new series being awarded to B? 5-1-2-b states just that does it not? I'm asking because I'm trying to grasp just when clock is "live" (wound on RFP), and when it's "dead" (starts on snap). Sorry to re-hash, but I need help.

Thanks

[Warrenkicker]

B, or R, ended the play with the ball, let's say inbounds, and would be awarded a new series after a legal kick. This clearly meets all of the requirements to have the clock started on the snap. However, K's foul during the play must be dealt with before the result of the play can be determined to be official. The hold by K3 occurred while the ball was still in K's possession and if accepted would require the down to be replayed and thus R can't be awarded a new series. The clock was stopped by an official's timeout to administer the penalty enforcement whereas if there was no foul the clock would have been stopped for COP.

[SouthGARef]

The clock was stopped due to a change of possession, but in this case you're technically not awarding B or R a new series because a new series isn't technically awarded until the subsequent ready for play. Since the penalty administration gave the ball backed to A or K, B is thus never awarded the new series. So if the returner was downed inbounds, the clock would start on the whistle. If the returner was downed OOB, the clock would start on the snap.