Okay, those three plays from the Super Bowl....

[hooper]

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF

I understand the rules. I understand the logic behind why it was called.

My only problem was the consistency. If a play is called consistently, then nobody can complain. Complaints are valid when the call is never made, then made at the most crucial of times.

Officials unfortunately forget that the game is about the players and the fans, not about them. Let the players play. A properly officiated game should leave the officials virtually invisible. This was not the case in the Super Bowl.

If you look for proof to support the calls, you can find it. If you look for proof to refute the calls, you can find it. What people SHOULD be looking for, is what is correct.

Spot on, CarolinaRef. At least someone sees the Superbowl for what it was.

[darren stevens]

Who are all you idiots saying there was only one bad call during this game, that being the bbw on hasselback. how bout the blown fumble call against the seahawks that thank god was overturned only because of replay. how bout the catch and fumble that was ruled incomplete and whistled dead by Stevens. Every questionable call that was made was against the seahawks. And pretty much, every call was questionable. I guess you all know more about the game and how its played than Marino, Sharpe, Young, and Madden. They all said the dpi was something that could be called every play and happens on almost every play barring a wide open situation. I can see the justification for that call, but then call it more often- and call the illegal contact on db's more often(like everytime they put hands on after 5 yards). You can't apply a spirit of the rule one time and then come out with that's the way the rule reads on the next. The holding call was a complete joke. look at the play in speed- didnt look like the defender's progress was held up to me. Just cause still picture showing the ol hand on the dl chest doesn't mean he is holding. Peace and sr. member- you can learn a lot from carolinarreff. I have read all the posts and hers/his are most objective. If I didn't know better, I'd think you guys are Pittsburgh Steeler Fans. Darren

[schmitty1973]

Uhhh.... Hmmmmmm.....Yeaaaaaahhhh ..... Let's seeeeeeeee... I think Puh-Hiitttsssssssburgh would've recovered the fummmmmble by Stevens, sooooooo Seattle gotta break... YEEaaahhhh.... That's greeeaaaaatttttttt...... Thanks for playing!

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by schmitty1973
Uhhh.... Hmmmmmm.....Yeaaaaaahhhh ..... Let's seeeeeeeee... I think Puh-Hiitttsssssssburgh would've recovered the fummmmmble by Stevens, sooooooo Seattle gotta break... YEEaaahhhh.... That's greeeaaaaatttttttt...... Thanks for playing!

You can be sarcastic all you like. The truth of the matter nothing is going to change because we complain or agree with the calls we have discussed. The NFL is going to do what they see fit and they are going to evaluate their officials the way they see fit. If these calls were not within the philosophies of the NFL, those officials will get some repercussions from that. If the NFL liked the job they did, they will get awarded for that. It does not matter what they say on ESPN or sports radio either. Most of the commentators have said the dumbest things as it relates to accountability by the officials or the way officials are trained.

Thank for the discussion but all our points are basically moot. For those that do officiate and disagree with the calls, I hope you can defend your calls that might seem controversial to those on either side of the game. If you work long enough you will be faced with a call that might be tough or not so obvious by the naked eye. I hope you then remember this conversation that we are having and I hope you get support by your fellow officials. You might just need it.

Peace

[schmitty1973]

I'm not being sarcastic, I was just saying that the Stevens no-catch was actually a call in favor of Seattle. I've already lost my battle, I just don't see why a guy would come in here just for the sake of complaining about the SB.

[OverAndBack]

Originally posted by darren stevens
The holding call was a complete joke. look at the play in speed- didnt look like the defender's progress was held up to me.

Except that he almost went to the ground and still nearly got the sack. I'd say his progress was held up. His arm was hooked.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by OverAndBack

Except that he almost went to the ground and still nearly got the sack. I'd say his progress was held up. His arm was hooked.

He actually did go down to one knee so yeah I agree a pretty significant advatage was gained.....as for the quote above by mr Stevens...you contradict yourself with all the calls going against seattle and mentioning the catch/fumble argument...When we watched it at our college rules meeting this week, granted it was in slow motion, but according the the DI philosophies out here, it was no catch..he didn't get his second foot down before he got hit so I think it was a good call...so MR Stevens, why don't you go on back to Samantha and see if she can wiggle her nose and make things all better for you....

[doogs]

JRutledge,
Thanks for taking the time to explain my points of interest. Not sure if I totally agree but I appreciate your clear explanations of your point of view. I am not a official and came to this board for some insight from people who do officiating on a regular basis. If my not being a official makes me unwelcome to this board I will refrain from posting anymore comments. Thanks again.

[OverAndBack]

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF
256 regular season games, <20 OPI calls, yet that same amount of contact happens on 90% of all pass plays.

Would it surprise you to know that the actual number of OPI calls in the 2005 NFL season was 98?

Would you be shocked to know that nine touchdowns were called back during the 2005 NFL season because of an OPI call?

Would you be taken aback if you knew that Plaxico Burress of the Giants led the league by being flagged for five OPI calls?

What if you knew that Randy Moss had two touchdown catches called back because he pushed off a defensive back?

I'll bet you would. But those are the facts.

[waltjp]

Originally posted by doogs
JRutledge,
Thanks for taking the time to explain my points of interest. Not sure if I totally agree but I appreciate your clear explanations of your point of view. I am not a official and came to this board for some insight from people who do officiating on a regular basis. If my not being a official makes me unwelcome to this board I will refrain from posting anymore comments. Thanks again.

Doogs,

I think you're missing the point if you feel you're unwelcome here. I haven't seen you do anything other than ask some questions and while you may not agree with the answers you haven't resorted to the conspiracy theory that some non-officials seem to accuse us of.

If you read this board regularly you'd see that we can be critical of our brothers working in the NFL, while maintaining respect for the work they put in to get there. I've had many conversations with NFL officials and know the kind of scrutiny they're subjected to. I think most fans would be shocked to hear how they're evaluated on every play, good or bad. I think it would do them well if the public were allowed to see the training and evaluation system these guys work under. I don't know of any of us that could survive this type of scrutiny, whether on the field or in our private business.

In short, you have a collection of officials from all over the country with varying backgrounds and experience generally agreeing that the Super Bowl was a well-called game. Sure, there may have been a missed call or 2 but they're not the ones getting all of the attention. After reviewing those plays, with the ability to run the play forwards and back, stop action and slow motion, I've concluded that the correct calls were made. I could only hope to see that same thing during live action and make the correct call.

So please, keep asking your questions. In general, I don't think we mind answering. But do accept the fact that we're not covering for anyone. We're just telling you what we feel the ruling should be based upon our knowledge of the rules and how we're instructed to apply them.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by OverAndBack


Would it surprise you to know that the actual number of OPI calls in the 2005 NFL season was 98?

Would you be shocked to know that nine touchdowns were called back during the 2005 NFL season because of an OPI call?

Would you be taken aback if you knew that Plaxico Burress of the Giants led the league by being flagged for five OPI calls?

What if you knew that Randy Moss had two touchdown catches called back because he pushed off a defensive back?

I'll bet you would. But those are the facts.

OMG, that is some good stuff right there. Man, you are really coming trough with the information. THANK YOU VERY MUCH Over and Back. This puts some things in perspective. If these calls have been made all year, not sure what there is to complain about.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by doogs
JRutledge,
Thanks for taking the time to explain my points of interest. Not sure if I totally agree but I appreciate your clear explanations of your point of view. I am not a official and came to this board for some insight from people who do officiating on a regular basis. If my not being a official makes me unwelcome to this board I will refrain from posting anymore comments. Thanks again.

You are more than welcome to come back and discuss things. Just understand that we know the rules better than the regular public even if we do not work those levels. Many of us go to camps and know officials that work at these levels and we know what they go through. You are more than welcome to discuss any officiating issue, just understand that we are not going to just take your word for it without considering what we know. Many times the officials here disagree on what we should do because not all of us are taught the same things or have the same experience. Just understand that this is an "Official's Forum" so our point of view is not going to be as friendly to fans that accuse officials of being bias or purposely making the wrong call. The guys at the NFL or major college is not going to jeopardize thousands of dollars to make one call that will lose them that all what they worked years to accomplish. I am sure their salary with the leagues put their kids through school, pay for their mortgages and any expenses that life will bring.

Peace

[carolinaRRREF]

Originally posted by OverAndBack

Would it surprise you to know that the actual number of OPI calls in the 2005 NFL season was 98?

no. That's still only 0.38 OPIs per game. And most of those were blatant. <20 of those were of the hand-check variety.

Would you be shocked to know that nine touchdowns were called back during the 2005 NFL season because of an OPI call?

same answer as above.

Would you be taken aback if you knew that Plaxico Burress of the Giants led the league by being flagged for five OPI calls?

not at all. He uses his hands and arms to create space to make catches... on pretty much EVERY pass play. And he only got called FIVE times. To lead the league. What's that tell you?

What if you knew that Randy Moss had two touchdown catches called back because he pushed off a defensive back?

Randy Moss is famous for pushing off. Why does he do it? Because he gets away with it. Like all receivers do. Sometimes, it's blatant -- when it is, sometimes it's called. Mostly, it's not.

I'll bet you would. But those are the facts.

My original point remains the same: A call was made that's a judgment call, that by the letter of the law was valid. However, the same play doesn't get called during the regular season 99% of the time, and now it does. By itself, not a big deal. Combined with half a dozen other borderline calls all against the same team, and there's a problem.

In a game as crucial as the Super Bowl, the referees should let the players play. You can argue each call as correct, but when put together, it was a poor job of officiating, because the officials changed the course of the game, which is unfortunate.

[cmathews]

Interesting point CarolinaRRRef....the one about 99% of the time it doesn't get called...I know that you just pulled that number out of your A## and didn't go through the research to back it up....but I did do a little (very little, cause it didn't take much time), but there were over 100 offensive plays in the super bowl. Of those I believe I only saw 1 OPI, that would mean less than 1%, which also means that more than 99% of the time in the super bowl OPI wasn't called. I believe that in your analysis, this would be consistent with the rest of the season....As for letting players decide the game, this is such a lame argument. If the players don't put the officials in the situation to decide if they gain an advantage or not, then there isn't a foul...So in essence the players do decide the game by their actions, again matching your argument step for step....CarolinaRRRef are you really sure what you are arguing about anyway?????

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF

no. That's still only 0.38 OPIs per game. And most of those were blatant. <20 of those were of the hand-check variety.

I must be missing something here. There was only 1 OPI call in the Super Bowl. There are about 160-170 plays in the Super Bowl. That would make OPI called less than 1% of all the calls in the game. Sounds pretty consistent to me if we use your logic right?

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF
not at all. He uses his hands and arms to create space to make catches... on pretty much EVERY pass play. And he only got called FIVE times. To lead the league. What's that tell you?

Do you have any evidence that he did it on every play? Do you have evidence that he made contact with a defensive player on every play? Calls also are based on advantage and also if the defender did something. I did not see every NY Giants game, but I did see Burress beat some DBs and there was no contact with anyone.

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF
Randy Moss is famous for pushing off. Why does he do it? Because he gets away with it. Like all receivers do. Sometimes, it's blatant -- when it is, sometimes it's called. Mostly, it's not.

I can tell you do not watch much football. Randy Moss's best route is a fly or go route. He does not go across the middle that much. He is one of the fastest players in the NFL. He goes right by people when he decides to run out the route. Moss was infamous for not even running a route when the play did not call for him to get the pass. I have also seen a lot of passes to Moss where he just outjumps a DB that he is about 6 to 7 inches taller than. He does not have to push off.

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF
My original point remains the same: A call was made that's a judgment call, that by the letter of the law was valid. However, the same play doesn't get called during the regular season 99% of the time, and now it does. By itself, not a big deal. Combined with half a dozen other borderline calls all against the same team, and there's a problem.

If the season average is less than 1 percent and the amount of times it was called in this one game is less than 1 percent, then what you just stated is not only wrong, but you obviously do not know how to use statistics. If the time it was called in this game was over 50%, then you have an argument. You are only percentage points away from calling it. Also, as a non-NFL official that is exposed to HS ball only, I know it does not get called enough because we do not have the balls to call OPI. But if the defender does anything wrong, we call them for penalties all day long and no one thinks anything about it.

Originally posted by carolinaRRREF
In a game as crucial as the Super Bowl, the referees should let the players play. You can argue each call as correct, but when put together, it was a poor job of officiating, because the officials changed the course of the game, which is unfortunate. [/B]

Ten total penalties in an NFL game with all the timing issues and amount of plays is pretty much “letting them play” if you ask me. Letting them play does not mean to turn the other cheek when infractions were made. I can guarantee you that there were many times throughout the game where players were complaining about being held or push offs all over the field.

Also it must be noted that you or I are not in the NFL. You and I have likely not ever had one of our games evaluated on every play no matter what we called or did not call. You and I have also not seen what the NFL thought were good calls and thought were bad calls in every game these guys work. You might look at some statistical data and think you have the answer, but they see every tape of every game. They know why they are being downgraded. They know why their partners are being downgraded. They are in constant contact with the NFL on what they did wrong and they get to see things from other official's games to determine what a trend is and what needs to be tightened on. Now I have only seen a couple of videos that the NFL produces for the officials. These guys see this information all the time. And you are going to tell us you know better than they do? I DO NOT THINK SO BUDDY!!! You might be a really good official, but until you get to that point (if you ever get to that point) you will see. I do not think you are in the NFL, so I am not sure how you can tell us what is "technically" right as to what the NFL wants and what is actually a good call.

Peace