Flaw in rules?

largeone59 · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 10:23pm

I was just thinking about this the other day.

I was curious, so i looked up when the clock starts on the ready whistle and when it starts on the snap.

Then i see: after a penalty, stop the clock to administer the penalty, but then start the clock depending on the last down.

So let's say this happens- Offense has the ball with about 2:30 left on the clock. Defense has no time outs. They run 2 running plays and milk the clock down to about 1:25. When the play clock gets to about 1, they jump offsides.

Penalty is administered, and the clock RUNS AGAIN ticking off an additional 25 sec. They jump offsides again. Penalty administered, clock runs again ticking off an additional 25 sec. They run another run play on 3rd down and run the clock out to win the game.

Has anybody noticed this flaw in the rules?

More importantly- is my rule logic correct?

chimpgym · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 11:07pm

Check rule 3-4-3 or 3-6-3 (depending on which set of rules you use), and you'll have your answer.

MJT · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 11:17pm

If they get away with that, the officials need to get into the book, cuz it should never happen. A good R will handle that by using 3-4-3-h, as stated above, and verbalizing to the team and coach that the clock will start on the snap. It will not happen anymore when the coach knows he cannot get away with it.

JugglingReferee · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 09, 2006, 11:37pm

Quote:

Originally posted by largeone59
I was just thinking about this the other day.

I was curious, so i looked up when the clock starts on the ready whistle and when it starts on the snap.

Then i see: after a penalty, stop the clock to administer the penalty, but then start the clock depending on the last down.

So let's say this happens- Offense has the ball with about 2:30 left on the clock. Defense has no time outs. They run 2 running plays and milk the clock down to about 1:25. When the play clock gets to about 1, they jump offsides.

Penalty is administered, and the clock RUNS AGAIN ticking off an additional 25 sec. They jump offsides again. Penalty administered, clock runs again ticking off an additional 25 sec. They run another run play on 3rd down and run the clock out to win the game.

Has anybody noticed this flaw in the rules?

More importantly- is my rule logic correct?

After the 3-minute warning has been given, the clock starts on the snap after a penalty application.

mcrowder · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 11:45am

JR - is this true in Canada even if the foul is against the defense? If so, then they could stop the clock without using up a timeout by jumping offsides as soon as the ball is RFP. Sure, they lose 5 yards, but I can see numerous instances where a team would GLADLY give up 5 yards to stop the clock.

BktBallRef · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally posted by largeone59
I was just thinking about this the other day.

I was curious, so i looked up when the clock starts on the ready whistle and when it starts on the snap.

Then i see: after a penalty, stop the clock to administer the penalty, but then start the clock depending on the last down.

So let's say this happens- Offense has the ball with about 2:30 left on the clock. Defense has no time outs. They run 2 running plays and milk the clock down to about 1:25. When the play clock gets to about 1, they jump offsides.

Penalty is administered, and the clock RUNS AGAIN ticking off an additional 25 sec. They jump offsides again. Penalty administered, clock runs again ticking off an additional 25 sec. They run another run play on 3rd down and run the clock out to win the game.

Has anybody noticed this flaw in the rules?

More importantly- is my rule logic correct?

It's not a flaw. The R is permitted by rule to start the clock on the snap if he feels that the offense is attempting to illegally consume time in such a manner.

Kirby · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:18pm

How many false starts with the clock running (or other DB fouls on A) need to be called for the R to enact 3-4-3(h)?

I would argue only 1 if it's late in the game/half and the defense needs that 3 & out to get the ball back. Any thoughts?

Bob M. · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 03:27pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Kirby
How many false starts with the clock running (or other DB fouls on A) need to be called for the R to enact 3-4-3(h)?

I would argue only 1 if it's late in the game/half and the defense needs that 3 & out to get the ball back. Any thoughts?

REPLY: I'm with you. I will keep the clock stopped even after the first false start.

mcrowder · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 04:08pm

If there's any doubt at all, do it the first time. At other times (1st quarter, tie game, etc), I won't start the clock after a 2nd consecutive DOG.

chimpgym · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 06:04pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
If there's any doubt at all, do it the first time. At other times (1st quarter, tie game, etc), I won't start the clock after a 2nd consecutive DOG.

Assuming that you are using Federation rules, why are you starting it after the first delay of game?

JugglingReferee · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 06:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
JR - is this true in Canada even if the foul is against the defense? If so, then they could stop the clock without using up a timeout by jumping offsides as soon as the ball is RFP. Sure, they lose 5 yards, but I can see numerous instances where a team would GLADLY give up 5 yards to stop the clock.

Don't forget that we have the 1 yard neutral zone. If the D is in that NZ, the play goes on. They would have to break the plane of the LS to stop the clock. The R could then option to A to decline the penalty to run the clock. If B did the same thing again, you could eventually penalize 10 yards for Objectionable Conduct, down repeated.

largeone59 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Jan 10, 2006, 08:01pm

Ok thanks guys. I knew there had to be a rule against that somewhere (as you can tell, i don't officiate football. i just play it).

A coach in high school did what i described one time, but he only had the player jump offsides one time. The clock wound down and he was able to run the clock out.

mcrowder · #13 (**permalink**) Wed Jan 11, 2006, 09:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by chimpgym

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
If there's any doubt at all, do it the first time. At other times (1st quarter, tie game, etc), I won't start the clock after a 2nd consecutive DOG.

Assuming that you are using Federation rules, why are you starting it after the first delay of game?

Bad assumption - I work NCAA rules.

#14 (**permalink**) Fri Jan 13, 2006, 05:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by chimpgym

Quote:

Originally posted by mcrowder
If there's any doubt at all, do it the first time. At other times (1st quarter, tie game, etc), I won't start the clock after a 2nd consecutive DOG.

Assuming that you are using Federation rules, why are you starting it after the first delay of game?

Also take a look at NFHS rule 3-6-3....
ART. 3 . . . When a team attempts to conserve or consume time illegally, the referee shall order the clock started or stopped.

So the referee can start the clock depending on what happen for the DOG....

Texas Aggie · #15 (**permalink**) Sat Jan 14, 2006, 05:23pm

You still wouldn't start the clock on the RFP in NCAA after an offensive DOG in this situation. NCAA 3-4-3 is a "shall" rule, and DOG is an "obviously unfair" tactic, as is any rule infraction.

Obviously, we are talking in terms of late game, Team A ahead situtions. Other situations may call for different standards of "obviously unfair" and "shall" be administered equitably in their own regard.