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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 04:43pm
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Does anyone use this mechanic on penalty measurements?

Tie score, late in the game. Fourth and a little over 5 for team A. The down box is about two inches outside the five yard tape. Team B jumps offside. Five will NOT get you a first down. In this instance, to quell the fears of anxious coaches, how about the HL bringing the the chains at the clip, the R grasping the chain where the down box is, stretch the chains, then walk off the penalty, placing the ball two inches short of the line to gain poll.

It would be mostly a "PR" mechanic to show everyone that while close, five did NOT get team A a first down. It will also make sure the penalty was accurately marked off, and the new LOS after enforcement actually was behind the line to gain.

Discuss....
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Old Mon Dec 12, 2005, 10:58pm
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Seems like overkill to me.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 07:01am
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I agree, it would mostly be a PR mechanic. I think a simple explanation would work too. Have the HL look at the chains, "yep, it is short of the tape mark so we won't have a first down." Explain that to the coaches (if necessary) then walk the penalty off. I don't even think it needs to be said directly to the coach. It could be a general comment, "since we are short of the five yard mark on the chains it will not be a first down" or something along those lines.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 08:36am
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If the team who will be short the first down is the visiting team, the HL can ask the coach to come over and look at the box's proximity to the tape. Tell the coach the box is short of the tape, and therefore it will not be a first down after enforcement.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 09:45am
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I actually had this happen in a sub-varsity game where I was referee. 3rd and 5 and B jumps offside. The linemen gives me the foul and I ask him where his tape is. He looks at me and says “tape?” I told him to go back and see which side of the tape the down marker is. He says to me, “I always what that tape was used for”.

As a varsity HL, I am always aware if it is 5 yards to go if we are just less or just more than 5 yards.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 12:06pm
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The only time I have heard using the chains for enforcement is when there's a foul by B and the end of the run is just +/- 15 yards. The mechanic is to bring the chains straight out as if measuring for a first down. Then while keepint the REAR rod in place, walk the FRONT rod backwards and stretch the chains BACKWARD. If the ball is inside the 5-yd tape mark then you know a 15-yard walkoff will result in a 1st down. It's not a bad mechanic although I haven't had to use it yet in my 5 years at the varsity level.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 02:50pm
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I knew a WH once who used a tape measure on the field. He thought it looked good; the rest of us thought he looked like an idiot.
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 02:56pm
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Old Tue Dec 13, 2005, 03:53pm
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I don't think that is a very good idea. What makes you think that the yard lines that you used to mark the chains with tape were accurate? I have worked on many fields with "wavy" yard lines that are not accurately laid out. Last season we changed ends at the end of the first quarter, 2nd and 9 from the 10 yardline. When we got to the other end of the field the LTG was in the endzone by about 2 inches. What a fun night.

When I place the tape I do it by holding both posts together and pulling the chain out from there. I have seen linesmem that place the tape by the yardline.

We only use it as a visual reference. All penalties should still be marked off on the field, not with the chains. But I do think that one mechanics manual describes this mechanic.

[Edited by Badger05 on Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:56 PM]
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Old Wed Dec 14, 2005, 11:42pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badger05
I don't think that is a very good idea. What makes you think that the yard lines that you used to mark the chains with tape were accurate? I have worked on many fields with "wavy" yard lines that are not accurately laid out. Last season we changed ends at the end of the first quarter, 2nd and 9 from the 10 yardline. When we got to the other end of the field the LTG was in the endzone by about 2 inches. What a fun night.

When I place the tape I do it by holding both posts together and pulling the chain out from there. I have seen linesmem that place the tape by the yardline.

We only use it as a visual reference. All penalties should still be marked off on the field, not with the chains. But I do think that one mechanics manual describes this mechanic.

[Edited by Badger05 on Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:56 PM]
Personally, I don't care if the lines are accurate. We had a touchback this past season and a run came up about 3 inches short of the 30. I refused to measure. I am not awarding a first down short of the 30 after a touchback, even if it is mis-marked by a bit.
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Old Thu Dec 15, 2005, 10:16am
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When the difference is 3 inches in the middle of the field, I agree with you. But in the scenario that happened to us the lines were off by more than 2 yards and the LTG ended up in the endzone when we switched ends at the end of the 1st quarter. What would you do in this situation?

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Old Thu Dec 15, 2005, 11:59am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badger05
When the difference is 3 inches in the middle of the field, I agree with you. But in the scenario that happened to us the lines were off by more than 2 yards and the LTG ended up in the endzone when we switched ends at the end of the 1st quarter. What would you do in this situation?

To me, it sounds like the linesman placed the ball way to close to the 10 yard line after a first down. Never place the ball on the 10 yard line. Place it so you clearly have a 1st and goal situation or a 1st and 10 with some "cushion" between the LTG and the endzone.
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Old Thu Dec 15, 2005, 01:20pm
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To me, it sounds like the linesman placed the ball way to close to the 10 yard line after a first down. Never place the ball on the 10 yard line. Place it so you clearly have a 1st and goal situation or a 1st and 10 with some "cushion" between the LTG and the endzone. [/B][/QUOTE]

The linesman spots the ball on your crew? We usually let the umpire do that.

The Ball was clearly outside the 10. And you must have missed the original description of the situation above. 2nd and 9 from the 10 yardline (as in the ball was being snapped from the 10 on 2nd down). Now, if you do the math, you will realize that the series started on the 11 yardline. The quarter ended after the 2nd down play. We went to the other end, set the chains and spotted the ball (umpire, not linesman), and the LTG was in the endzone when the chains were stretched out. This would obviously make it very difficult for team A to gain a first down. Please read the situations carefully before responding next time.
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Old Thu Dec 15, 2005, 01:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badger05



To me, it sounds like the linesman placed the ball way to close to the 10 yard line after a first down. Never place the ball on the 10 yard line. Place it so you clearly have a 1st and goal situation or a 1st and 10 with some "cushion" between the LTG and the endzone.
The linesman spots the ball on your crew? We usually let the umpire do that.

The Ball was clearly outside the 10. And you must have missed the original description of the situation above. 2nd and 9 from the 10 yardline (as in the ball was being snapped from the 10 on 2nd down). Now, if you do the math, you will realize that the series started on the 11 yardline. The quarter ended after the 2nd down play. We went to the other end, set the chains and spotted the ball (umpire, not linesman), and the LTG was in the endzone when the chains were stretched out. This would obviously make it very difficult for team A to gain a first down. Please read the situations carefully before responding next time. [/B][/QUOTE]

RELAX... I see why you call yourself Badger. If the field was that far off, all you can do is your best. Sorry for my misunderstanding of the original LOS.
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Old Sun Dec 18, 2005, 12:35pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Badger05
I don't think that is a very good idea. What makes you think that the yard lines that you used to mark the chains with tape were accurate? I have worked on many fields with "wavy" yard lines that are not accurately laid out. Last season we changed ends at the end of the first quarter, 2nd and 9 from the 10 yardline. When we got to the other end of the field the LTG was in the endzone by about 2 inches. What a fun night.

When I place the tape I do it by holding both posts together and pulling the chain out from there. I have seen linesmem that place the tape by the yardline.

We only use it as a visual reference. All penalties should still be marked off on the field, not with the chains. But I do think that one mechanics manual describes this mechanic.

[Edited by Badger05 on Dec 13th, 2005 at 03:56 PM]
We had a simular problem one year. I noticed when I was walking the field. They have the little hash mark on the side lines between every 5 yard mark. But I noticed some had four and some had three. Somebody had a few too many beers before lining the field...LOL
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