working with other officials.

[Rich]

Originally posted by BigFarns

I had a game today and paid special attention on plays away as to where I was looking and what I was seeing. I must apologize because I noticed twice where for some unknown reason I stopped watching my area and started watching the ball on the other side. That is probably more likely what happen back in situation #2 of the original post.

In situation #1 though I still don't agree that I must watch only my side of the LOS. I mean why should that other official tell the kid that he was "OK"? He shouldn't and you can get way too much of an advantage by lining up offsides.
What would I think of the other official if it happen to me? Well, I'd think he was covering a mistake for me...but the last thing I'd do is run into the conference they were having and force the flag to be picked up. In fact I'd be embarrassed for telling the kid he was lined up correctly when he obviously wasn't.
This is of course my opinion...but judging from the responces I've gotten on this forum and the responces I got from some officials in person...I guess I'm wrong. Which is fine...that's what the forum is for...for me to be wrong and learn. Right?!?

Anyhow...I looked back at my post and maybe I'm being too defensive. I played a lot of years, I've been a coach and now I'm an official. The last thing I'd want to be accused of is being "an over officious jerk". Especially being accused by another official as such. I did not move to being an official to control anything....I simply did it to be involved in the game I love. I would still coach but I don't have the time to do that anymore. Now two games a week as an official is all I can do.

You are being over-officious if you are calling encroachment on the other side of the ball from where you are. We have 2 wingmen for a reason. Explain all you want, but there's no escaping this reality.

[BigFarns]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


You are being over-officious if you are calling encroachment on the other side of the ball from where you are. We have 2 wingmen for a reason. Explain all you want, but there's no escaping this reality.

And if you look at my post I did admit I must be wrong. No need to rub it in. Rookie mistake. I guess my biggest mistake on it was not asking the LJ about it. Though in the games I've done I've found that except for timeouts, scores, and quarters...I never have time to discreetly discuss something like that with the other wingman.

[Edited by bigfarns on Oct 19th, 2005 at 11:43 AM]

[JasonTX]

Originally posted by BigFarns
[/B]

In situation #1 though I still don't agree that I must watch only my side of the LOS. I mean why should that other official tell the kid that he was "OK"? He shouldn't and you can get way too much of an advantage by lining up offsides. [/B][/QUOTE]

The game is all about being in position and angles. From 40 yards away it's difficult to see if a player on the other side of the line closest to the LJ is on or off the line or even encroaching. I trust that his position and close proximity to the player that if he has him on the line then I trust that he is "ok" even from my far distance that he appears to be encroaching. It's like having a ball become dead on the side opposite the chains that it's just too far away to see if it's a first down. We bring the chains across and see it's a first down. Had we been on the other sideline we wouldn't have had to measure as it's obvious when the ball is that close. Players positioning is the same. If they're on the other side, it's too far away to be certain and when they are on your side, it's much easier to see.

[BigFarns]

Originally posted by JasonTX

In situation #1 though I still don't agree that I must watch only my side of the LOS. I mean why should that other official tell the kid that he was "OK"? He shouldn't and you can get way too much of an advantage by lining up offsides. [/B]

The game is all about being in position and angles. From 40 yards away it's difficult to see if a player on the other side of the line closest to the LJ is on or off the line or even encroaching. I trust that his position and close proximity to the player that if he has him on the line then I trust that he is "ok" even from my far distance that he appears to be encroaching. It's like having a ball become dead on the side opposite the chains that it's just too far away to see if it's a first down. We bring the chains across and see it's a first down. Had we been on the other sideline we wouldn't have had to measure as it's obvious when the ball is that close. Players positioning is the same. If they're on the other side, it's too far away to be certain and when they are on your side, it's much easier to see. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good thoughts on this and I will keep them in mind.

[BigFarns]

Thanks to all for your replies...even those who decided to pile on a bit (rich). I think I understand where your coming from and I've learned.
My main point though (and I think it got lost when I got defensive) is that in situation #1 I really was trying make the correct call. In situation #2 (even though I made the mistake of watching towards the ball) I avoided making the right call because of what I learned in the previous situation.

Basically I will now try to focus harder on keeping my eyes only in my area. Alot more difficult than it sounds by the way. And if I do notice something before the snap that isn't in my area I will try to communicate in-between plays or something with the other officials. Hopefully experience will work out the problems.

[JasonTX]

Just remember when a coach is screaming about a foul on the other side, don't reply with "Coach, that's not my call." A coach don't buy that, because in his mind if you seen it then you should call it. To him that statement is interpreted as, "Coach, I seen it but since it's not in my area I'm not calling it." I usually don't respond at all unless the coach asks me a question. If they're just venting then don't even say anything. If a response is neccessary then simply say, "Coach, where did you see the foul at? On the other side? I'm watching this area right here, but I'll go in at the most convenient time and have them watch for the 'holding'." When you make that promise to go in, make sure you do. The umpire or whoever is watching an area already knows to be watching for a foul, such as holding and they know coaches will complain about a missed call and by you going in and telling them the coach wants them to watch for holding, it's not going to upset them, as they know you are just fullfilling the request the coach had. It's not as if you are accusing them of anything and they won't take it as such.

[l3will]

Just an observation from working with lots of different officials over lots of years, some wing officials seem to have a very hard time squaring themselves away on the line of scrimmage. What I mean by that, is that some wings I have worked with are off by a lot when they try to get on the line of scrimmage. They can be off up to a yard either way, which makes the opposite wings job more challenging.

The only thing the a wing can do is to make sure that he is on the line and squares away the players on his side of the ball. He has to let the other wing take care of his side, since he may be lining people up incorrectly. Some players use the ball and the wing official as gospel when lining up, others seem to just naturally find the line of scrimmage by using the field markings.

Most wings eventually find the line after a time, but some don't. I think most of us have worked with people on the down box who always are off by quite a bit and not necessarily in their team's favor either. It's a lot easier on the linesman if the guy on the box is good.

I try to help the wing out with visual clues, but have noticed that some (not very many) officials just can't seem to do it consistently.

Just something to consider.

[Rich]

Originally posted by BigFarns
Thanks to all for your replies...even those who decided to pile on a bit (rich). I think I understand where your coming from and I've learned.
My main point though (and I think it got lost when I got defensive) is that in situation #1 I really was trying make the correct call. In situation #2 (even though I made the mistake of watching towards the ball) I avoided making the right call because of what I learned in the previous situation.

Basically I will now try to focus harder on keeping my eyes only in my area. Alot more difficult than it sounds by the way. And if I do notice something before the snap that isn't in my area I will try to communicate in-between plays or something with the other officials. Hopefully experience will work out the problems.

I wasn't piling on -- I was simply saying that there is more than getting the call right. The perception you give when you launch a flag includes (1) Your partner isn't able to cover his area (2) You aren't watching where you should be looking and (3) You're looking for an excuse to call something.

I've had to rain flags in from a distance, but usually on something like a facemask where the covering official is screened and I am cleaning up as the WH. By all means, if you're 100% of a safety related foul, get it, but encroachment? Nah.

[Edited by Rich Fronheiser on Oct 19th, 2005 at 01:10 PM]

[dumbref]

Originally posted by BigFarns

I had a game today and paid special attention on plays away as to where I was looking and what I was seeing. I must apologize because I noticed twice where for some unknown reason I stopped watching my area and started watching the ball on the other side. That is probably more likely what happen back in situation #2 of the original post.

In situation #1 though I still don't agree that I must watch only my side of the LOS. I mean why should that other official tell the kid that he was "OK"? He shouldn't and you can get way too much of an advantage by lining up offsides.
What would I think of the other official if it happen to me? Well, I'd think he was covering a mistake for me...but the last thing I'd do is run into the conference they were having and force the flag to be picked up. In fact I'd be embarrassed for telling the kid he was lined up correctly when he obviously wasn't.
This is of course my opinion...but judging from the responces I've gotten on this forum and the responces I got from some officials in person...I guess I'm wrong. Which is fine...that's what the forum is for...for me to be wrong and learn. Right?!?

Anyhow...I looked back at my post and maybe I'm being too defensive. I played a lot of years, I've been a coach and now I'm an official. The last thing I'd want to be accused of is being "an over officious jerk". Especially being accused by another official as such. I did not move to being an official to control anything....I simply did it to be involved in the game I love. I would still coach but I don't have the time to do that anymore. Now two games a week as an official is all I can do.

Now you are learning from your experiences! You have been trained as a player, a coach, as a specter and watching TV to follow the football. One of the hardest things to break as official is looking away from the ball. Sometimes you feel like you are missing one heck of a game. People ask questions all the time “Did you see that cut the runner made?” or “Did you see that catch?” And most of the time I can truly say “No, but did you see the block the set it up?” I have been doing this 33 years and I still struggle to look away at times. But that is when the filter kicks in and says don’t throw that flag – it’s not your area. Or it had not effect on the play. But it doesn’t prevent me from letting the player know I saw it.

As far as making someone pick up a flag – I can honestly say I have never done that. I have asked “Are you sure?” Or “Did you see the whole block?” If the answer is yes – then I mark it off. The choice to pick it up should always be theirs. Now I may talk to them at half time or at the end of the game about a call I disagreed with– but not during the game.

[OverAndBack]

I love it when I have a partner or partners who "get it." As a second-year guy, I still need to learn and I'm happy when I get someone who approaches the game professionally and points things out and handles things the right way.

Occasionally I'll get one of those guys who's "too good" to work the middle-school games I've been doing. When the first thing out of the guy's mouth when he shows up at the field is "Who has the checks?" I know it's probably going to be one of those days.

Considering all the junk you have to go through on this job already, if I keep drawing bad partners, it's going to force me into an early retirement from this thing.

[okcref]

As a wingman on Fridays nights I would have agreed with almost all officials that you should only call offsides on your side of the line of scrimmage. However, this past friday changed my mind. I was looking down the line of scrimmage and could clearly see the defensive end on the opposite side across the ball, but did not call it as it was not on my side of the line. After the game the other wing man mentioned that his flag had dropped into his pants and clearly saw the offsides but didn't blow his whistle because he couldn't find his flag. He was hoping that I saw the offsides too and would call it.
I would never presume a back or reciever on the opposite side offsides and throw a flag, but as far as lineman on the interior I will not hesitate ( as I did this past Friday ) to call a lineman or defensive end, whether on my side or not, offsides.

Mark

[l3will]

Originally posted by okcref
As a wingman on Fridays nights I would have agreed with almost all officials that you should only call offsides on your side of the line of scrimmage. However, this past friday changed my mind. I was looking down the line of scrimmage and could clearly see the defensive end on the opposite side across the ball, but did not call it as it was not on my side of the line. After the game the other wing man mentioned that his flag had dropped into his pants and clearly saw the offsides but didn't blow his whistle because he couldn't find his flag. He was hoping that I saw the offsides too and would call it.
I would never presume a back or reciever on the opposite side offsides and throw a flag, but as far as lineman on the interior I will not hesitate ( as I did this past Friday ) to call a lineman or defensive end, whether on my side or not, offsides.

Mark

\

You've got to be kidding.... the opposite wing could have just blown it dead. So he's embarrassed by dropping his flag down his pants. What's he going to do if the play actually started legally then had a foul during the down?
Not call it because the flag is "lost" in has pants?
.
Seems like a lame excuse to me.

[shave-tail]

I've read Mr. Rich Fronheiser's post that "there's more than just getting it right". What the hell else is there? I have never ever thought another official was "showing" me up or disrespecting me if they threw a flag in my "area". I understand and I'm confident in my abilities that my partners are not psychic and can't possible know what I'm thinking or what action has caught my eye. I stand by my earlier post "if you see it, throw it". I don't want Mr. Fronheiser to think I'm singling him out...he has many, many posts and is no doubt a very good offical I just can't agree with that statement.

[Rich]

Originally posted by shave-tail
I've read Mr. Rich Fronheiser's post that "there's more than just getting it right". What the hell else is there? I have never ever thought another official was "showing" me up or disrespecting me if they threw a flag in my "area". I understand and I'm confident in my abilities that my partners are not psychic and can't possible know what I'm thinking or what action has caught my eye. I stand by my earlier post "if you see it, throw it". I don't want Mr. Fronheiser to think I'm singling him out...he has many, many posts and is no doubt a very good offical I just can't agree with that statement.

Getting it right is a matter of perspective. What you think is right 30 yards away may not be right to the person on top of the play. you may get it right for the wrong reasons or your getting it right may be at the expense of your partner(s)'s credibility the rest of the game if you're calling in his area.

Example: This season I had an umpire throw a pass interference flag on a pass 25 yards downfield. I have no idea how he can make that call when his responsibility is to get to the line of scrimmage to make sure the quarterback isn't across the line when the pass was thrown. The BJ and the LJ, both closer with good angles, signalled incomplete. After a discussion, the flag was picked up.

Likewise, I spoke to a wing (whose never worked with our crew before) to work (during a freshman game) to help the ends (with a word or two) so they didn't encroach. Technically, the right call would be to simply throw the flag. Does it make the game better at that level? After a word or two, the ends figured out where to line up and the problem was eliminated. Would it have made the game better to throw the flags?

There's more to officiating than getting a single call right.

[BulldogMcC]

Originally posted by shave-tail
I've read Mr. Rich Fronheiser's post that "there's more than just getting it right". What the hell else is there? I have never ever thought another official was "showing" me up or disrespecting me if they threw a flag in my "area". I understand and I'm confident in my abilities that my partners are not psychic and can't possible know what I'm thinking or what action has caught my eye. I stand by my earlier post "if you see it, throw it". I don't want Mr. Fronheiser to think I'm singling him out...he has many, many posts and is no doubt a very good offical I just can't agree with that statement.

If you are 100% sure of the call and it fits into the safety, point of attack, unfair advantage or stadium call categories, then you have to throw it.

If you are anything less sure than 100%, then you have to rely on the covering offical to make that call.

You should be officiating your area, I don't see how an umpire can throw a pass interference flag 25 yards down field. Why was he looking there? Is he 100% certain the foul occurred? How can he be 100% certain a foul occurred if it was obvious from 25 yards away but two or more down field officials covering the action didn't see it that way. Same with encroachment on the far side of the line. I might look at my opposite wing and point to the player. After the play, I will hustle to midfield or the far hash, ask the R for a second and talk to the other wing about it, but I don't ever see myself throwing it except in our three man games. When the other official reported that his flag fell down so he could not throw a flag, where was his whistle? He could have blown his whistle, run into the R, reported encroachment but that his flag has slipped down his pants. The R could have then dropped a flag, or taken a moment to explain to both coaches. While everyones focus was on the R, the wing could have discreetly recovered his flag. Loosing it down your pants does not mean fouls don't occur. If he only has one flag, what does he do if he has a foul at the snap and then DPI later in the play? Being a wing is the most commen place to have two flags, because you can have illegal shift, motion, formation or substitution at the snap and then have to continue officiating the play. Most of the stuff an R or U calls keeps the ball dead, false starts and snap infractions, but ours all carry two anyway.

I also agree with Ron to a degree, getting the call right does not mean dropping a flag for every foul that occurs, I have listed my criteria for dropping a flag previously. Getting it right means just that, a justifiable call enforced correctly.

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Oct 21st, 2005 at 02:42 AM]