1st year ref dilemma! Pick up flag?

[oncelost77]

First of all, I love the forum and it provides great insight for a first year ref.
Well lets get right to it, I have been asked twice to pick up my flag by the head referee. In both situations I was correct, double forward pass and twelve-men illegal participation. Being a first year ref., I don't see a need in battling with my head referee over this. It is JV ball, not Varsity or higher. However, I do feel awkward picking up the flag. If anyone has insight and/or advice it would be greatly apprciated. In both cases, the referee later told me I was right.
My major question is what is the protocol for this situation. Do I waver and pick up the flag, or .... I am not sure of options here. Thanks in advance
First Year and Lovin' it.

[irefky]

first of all, you have a poor mentor. If this person is telling you to pick a flag up, he first needs to give you an explanation, why? Then, he needs to wave it off to press box. I am sure a coach would like to know what has happened. Maybe, this guy does not know the signal to give or just don't have pride in what he is doing. I would talk with him about it, one on one and if this does not work, find someone else to work with.

Ask questions if someone ask you to pick up a flag, especially if you are right. Bad situation you are in, good luck.

[JDLJ]

You didn't really explain why the referee wanted you to pick up your flag so it's tough to say too much.

Think of it this way - you pick up your flag after every call. You flag it, report it to the referee and then, after enforcement, pick up your flag and move on.

In these cases, you called it, he declined to enforce it but you still pick up your flag and move on. If a coach asks what happened, i would tell him that he needs to talk to the referee and leave it at that.

[kd0254]

To really judge this I would have had to see the play/s, know the level, score of the game etc.. . .

I personally have never "asked" an other official to pick up a flag if it was based on his judgement. The only time I would have the issue of picking up a flag would be in a case were we have conflicting opinions of two officials that have it different ways or on a misapplication of the rules.

On the same note I know that I definetly change the way I officiate based on the level of play. If I have 11/12 year old kids I do a lot more talking when it comes to things that don't affect the play. You could flag alot of teams every down, but it often doesn't pay to do it. I remember back to my first year and during a Junior High game a had a flag for delay of game, it was correct by the book but I had it waved off by the WH because he explained that we don't use the delay of game penalty unless it gets overly abused at the JH level.

As far as your story it sounds like you got bossed around, I would talk to the guy who had you pick up your flags, don't get offensive, just take a learning and questionative approach to it and see if that can solve your concerns.

[MJT]

I agree, you need to discuss with him "why" we are going to pick it up. If you think you are correct, in a nice way, tell him why. If it becomes a problem, pick it up and later show him why we did have a foul. I hope things improve for you.

[oncelost77]

Thanks for the replies. On the double pass call, he thought I was wrong, and that two forward passes was legal. The second situation was a different game, during punt, twelth man runs on and participates. I throw the flag, the play ends and he asks me about the flag. I tell him, but he asks me to pick it up because he didn't count twelve. Neither is a big deal. I average 2/fpg(flags per game) If I throw it, I know it. Telling the coach to talk to the head referee about the picked up flag, I cannot see doing that. Thanks for all the replies.
All JV games I might add again.

[MJT]

If he does not know that 2 forward passes is illegal, that being a new rule change, what was he doing during the rules meeting? If a guy doesn't pay attention there, he should at least read the new rule changes in the rule book, or information sent out from the state. On that one, I would have been pretty firm on telling him that this is a NEW RULE change and I am sure of it.

[JDLJ]

While you work as a crew, you are responsible for your own actions. If you throw a flag for two forward passes and the WH tells you to pick up your flag because he doesn't know that's illegal you have a problem if the coach asks you why the penalty isn't being enforced.

If you don't tell him he needs to talk to the white hat, what are you going to say? It was the referee's decision and he should be able to stand behind it.

[mcrowder]

One note - if you're so concerned with your Flags per Game that you are tracking it, you are probably too worried about your perception as a flag thrower than you should be. Only if someone told you that you seemed to be either over or under-flagging things would I even bother to track this.

That said, if it's a matter of rule interp (2 forward passes), get another official in there and make sure you get it right. If it's a simple he-said, she-said (I counted 12, you counted 11), explain what you saw and let him decide. Perhaps he saw one running off that you didn't see.

Now... the simple waiving off of a flag is not necessarily a negative statement on you. Just last night I waived one off from a 1st year guy. (Hopefully, I did a better job explaining why to him than this guy did for you!) We work NCAA mechanics, so have HL, LJ, and R. LJ flagged a man for being downfield (he was) when he saw the pass leave the QB's hand. He didn't, however, notice that the pass was behind the LOS. So we waived it off, and explained why. After the game, he felt that he'd screwed up on that play. I told him that he didn't necessarily screw up - there were receivers breaking on his side, and while he picked up the downfield lineman while following the receivers on his side, the call of whether the ball crossed the line is actually not always 100% his responsibility and that HL and I had a better look at that than he did.

So the waive-off was not necessarily a knock on him, and the 2 you had waived off on you might not have been on you either.

[oncelost77]

My flag per game # was for reference to the fact that I do not throw alot, and I said if I know it I throw it. My perception as a flag thrower I do not worry about. I was relating that I do not throw 10-15 a game, therefore giving him some reason to ask me to pick it up because I throw to many as a first year and somehow I am wrong. I could see someone that throws alot of flags in JV, even if justified, for the referee to want to keep the game moving and ask him to pick it up. Thats all, thanks for the insight.

[Rich]

Originally posted by oncelost77
My flag per game # was for reference to the fact that I do not throw alot, and I said if I know it I throw it. My perception as a flag thrower I do not worry about. I was relating that I do not throw 10-15 a game, therefore giving him some reason to ask me to pick it up because I throw to many as a first year and somehow I am wrong. I could see someone that throws alot of flags in JV, even if justified, for the referee to want to keep the game moving and ask him to pick it up. Thats all, thanks for the insight.

I am a varsity WH and I've picked up 2 flags this season during varsity games. I've read through this thread and the phrase "ask him to pick up his flag" makes no sense to me.

When a flag needs to be picked up, I am not "asking" anyone -- if there's a rule misinterpretation and it's clear when the covering official tells me, I tell that official that we are picking the flag up. As a crew. But the covering official doesn't really have a choice.

Don't get me wrong -- I would NEVER pick up a flag simply on a difference of opinion or on a judgment call unless the crew tells me to or unless I can convince the flagging official on a play where I also have coverage that I saw things differently.

We had a spear in week 3 this season -- one which knocked a kid out on a play I didn't see (it was on a punt). Both covering officials told me the player had to be ejected. As the R I took 100% of the heat for it. If I pick up a flag, I know I will take the heat for it, but sometimes it's the right thing to do.

I've had flags picked up on me in my early years and it does sting your pride. But if you truly thought it was a foul, you've DONE your job regardless if the penalty is enforced, or not.

[irefky]

I threw on flag this year that was picked up due to pass being touched at LOS. I did not see this as I was watching my keys. No problem, WH told me what happened, we got it right.

[Texas Aggie]

>>We work NCAA mechanics, so have HL, LJ, and R. LJ flagged a man for being downfield (he was) when he saw the pass leave the QB's hand. He didn't, however, notice that the pass was behind the LOS. So we waived it off, and explained why.<<

Not sure I consider that a waive off, at least not one similar to what was mentioned above. What everyone did was correct: he threw the flag, and you (or the other official) made the determination that the foul didn't occur because of other information that you, and not the LJ, had. He was probably downfield. If its me, I'd rather have the flag thrown than a guy 7 yards downfield trying to guess whether the pass was completed behind the line, and focusing on that instead of the downfield blocking, spot, etc.

Anyway, I've seen this a lot. If you had had a mic, you simply announce, "the flag was thrown for an ineligible player downfield. However, since the pass was completed behind the line of scrimmage, there are no restrictions on downfield players and thus no foul." I was in the stands at a high school varsity game a couple of years ago when this happened, and I explained it to the people around me before the WH announced it. If you don't have a mic, that's what you say to the coach.

[SoGARef]

My approach on a flag that might need to be waved is this.
I will ask the covering official what he saw and if he saw the whole thing. Most of the time the official will tell me that he is right on or will say you know we need to wave that off. I am of the opinion that the referee is no more important than any other official on the field. I don't believe that I have the right to tell another official to pick up his flag if that official is certain of his call. I may take the heat, but I am not going to usurp another official's confidence by overruling him unless I can subtilty point him towards the right call.

[Rich]

Originally posted by SoGARef
My approach on a flag that might need to be waved is this.
I will ask the covering official what he saw and if he saw the whole thing. Most of the time the official will tell me that he is right on or will say you know we need to wave that off. I am of the opinion that the referee is no more important than any other official on the field. I don't believe that I have the right to tell another official to pick up his flag if that official is certain of his call. I may take the heat, but I am not going to usurp another official's confidence by overruling him unless I can subtilty point him towards the right call.

If you can't pick up a flag on your crew without worrying about the official's confidence, well, your crew has other issues.

If an official reports a foul where he is clearly mistaken in his rules knowledge, you're going to let that flag stand if you can't convince him he's wrong?

One doesn't need to be on a power trip or "more important" to be the person in charge.