NCAA Play

Texas Aggie · #1 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 10:59am

Had this last night, and when I got home, tried to put it together in the rules, but couldn't. It was late, and I was tired, so I might have glossed over something simple, but its at least worth discussing.

Fairly simple play: Pass thrown, intercepted and ran back for a TD by the defense. I'm R, and I flag a roughing the passer, but the roughing foul was pretty clearly AFTER the interception (pass was thrown right to a defender 8 yards or so away). What we did was give the ball to the intercepting team, mark 15 off from there, and go first and ten. It wiped out the TD, obviously. Note that the contact I flaged wasn't a block for an INT; the defensive kid had his eye on the QB the whole time and didn't know about the INT.

Right or wrong? What specific rules are in play? Would you change the call to an illegal block?

JasonTX · #2 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 11:25am

NCAA: By rule he no longer meets the definition of passer. Once the ball is caught, incomplete, or intercepted or he moves to participate in the play he loses his status of being a passer. That throws out the foul roughing the passer. However, in your judgement if he is obviously out of the play then you can still have a personal foul or maybe helmet to helmet contact. If that's what you decided then your enforcement was correct. Other things to consider could be a block in the back, holding or some other type of illegal block, but by your description it seems you made the right call.

The Roamin' Umpire · #3 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 12:18pm

Huh. That's not a play I've ever thought about.

I'm going to shoot from the hip here; I'll have to check my books later.

My hunch is that Fed rules do not have the same definition of passer as NCAA rules, and that under the NF code, the QB is still a passer in this situation.

...

Nope, I'm not coming up with a good conclusion - I typed out three different things and deleted all of them. My conflict is that B meets the requirements of the "clean hands" rule, but the foul carries an automatic first down.

Best guess: you did the right thing, as team A is no longer the offense, so they don't get the roughing protection.

JDLJ · #4 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 12:42pm

It seems to me that even under the NF rules, once the pass is intercepted, the QB is now a potential tackler and can be hit (even if the defensive tackle is unaware of the interception). I would think you might still might have a foul, though. You could have holding (if he tackles the QB) or helmet to helmet, roughing a player who is out of the play or any number of other fouls. I'd be hard pressed to call roughing the QB.

TXMike · #5 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 01:43pm

We were not in your shoes and this is one I'd like to see but on paper I don't see the foul (unless as stated, the block was helmet to helmet, in the back, clipping, etc). If the QB was only 8 yards from interceptor then he sure is a potential tackler and can/should be blocked.

Bob M. · #6 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by The Roamin' Umpire
...My hunch is that Fed rules do not have the same definition of passer as NCAA rules, and that under the NF code, the QB is still a passer in this situation.

REPLY: Actually, Fed definition is similar to that of NCAA. He's only a passer until the pass ends.

Huskerblue · #7 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 02:06pm

Without looking at my rule books, my instinct tells me to pick up the flag and score the TD. After I look at my books, my opinion might change.

Texas Aggie · #8 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 02:28pm

Where exactly are we getting this idea that the passer's status ends with the pass completed/intercepted? The definition of Pass certainly states that the pass is over when stated, but the specific rule on roughing the passer doesn't indicate as much. The passer was still in his passing stance, not moving to make a play at all.

I believe there IS a foul here. At worst, it is an illegal block or holding (if tackled; but I think he was hit). I threw the flag not knowing it was intercepted, but found out rather quickly since they started coming at me!

Incidentally, mechanics wise, I followed the runner to the EZ. Do I signal TD knowing the foul was on the defense and the TD may not stand? I didn't signal anything.

JDLJ · #9 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 02:38pm

First of all, yes - signal TD because you are telling folks that B crossed the goal line with the ball in his possession.

I think as a referee, you would have to throw the flag for a RTP on this play. Your mechanics would keep you focused on the passer and you would not know whether the pass was complete, incomplete or intercepted. One of your crew could convince you to pick it up if the hit was after the interception and it was a legal hit on a potential tackler.

If the hit was after the interception though as you originally stated, I don't think it would be likely that you would have roughing the passer. If the pass is complete or incomplete, there is no reason to hit the passer. If it is intercepted and the QB is ready to participate in the play, he is legal game.

JasonTX · #10 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 02:47pm

If he's no longer a passer by rule, then how else could there be roughing the passer. After the pass is incomplete, complete, or intercepted or he moves to participate in the play he's just a normal player like the rest of his teammates and no special protection is provided for him other than the same rules against fouling him or his other 10 teammates. He may have gotten "roughed" up, but it's not called roughing the passer.

TXMike · #11 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 04:30pm

I am with Jason. Just because he is in his "passer stance", whatever that is???, doesn't mean he is still the passer. Once he has completed his throwing motion and got his balance back, he loses the special protection.

JugglingReferee · #12 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 07:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Had this last night, and when I got home, tried to put it together in the rules, but couldn't. It was late, and I was tired, so I might have glossed over something simple, but its at least worth discussing.

Fairly simple play: Pass thrown, intercepted and ran back for a TD by the defense. I'm R, and I flag a roughing the passer, but the roughing foul was pretty clearly AFTER the interception (pass was thrown right to a defender 8 yards or so away). What we did was give the ball to the intercepting team, mark 15 off from there, and go first and ten. It wiped out the TD, obviously. Note that the contact I flaged wasn't a block for an INT; the defensive kid had his eye on the QB the whole time and didn't know about the INT.

Right or wrong? What specific rules are in play? Would you change the call to an illegal block?

We use the clean hands principle. Once the INT occurs, the QB is no longer a QB, but is a potential tackler. The flag is a UR flag here, so it's back 15 from Point Ball Held at the time of the UR, 1D/10 for B.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 07:49pm

Anybody remember Jim McMahon getting SLAMMED by a Packer (I forget who..)after an INT,and Markbreit not only giving the PF,but EJECTING the idiot who did it? PLUS I think Jerry actually negated the INT also....this was almost 20 years ago..and I remember watching it to this day....this post brought back the memory VERY nicely...

#14 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 10:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by ASA/NYSSOBLUE
Anybody remember Jim McMahon getting SLAMMED by a Packer (I forget who..)after an INT,and Markbreit not only giving the PF,but EJECTING the idiot who did it? PLUS I think Jerry actually negated the INT also....this was almost 20 years ago..and I remember watching it to this day....this post brought back the memory VERY nicely...

I have to say yes I do remember that...LOL

#15 (**permalink**) Fri Oct 07, 2005, 11:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Had this last night, and when I got home, tried to put it together in the rules, but couldn't. It was late, and I was tired, so I might have glossed over something simple, but its at least worth discussing.

Fairly simple play: Pass thrown, intercepted and ran back for a TD by the defense. I'm R, and I flag a roughing the passer, but the roughing foul was pretty clearly AFTER the interception (pass was thrown right to a defender 8 yards or so away). What we did was give the ball to the intercepting team, mark 15 off from there, and go first and ten. It wiped out the TD, obviously. Note that the contact I flaged wasn't a block for an INT; the defensive kid had his eye on the QB the whole time and didn't know about the INT.

Right or wrong? What specific rules are in play? Would you change the call to an illegal block?

I have to give my 2 cents:

If you called RP. It would have to happen before the INT. In all effect give the ball back to A and enforcing a penalty against B... But by what you stated it was a possible PF after the INT. And if that is what you judgeed then you did the correct enforcement...just not a RP.