Play question?

K 4-12 @ R45. K1's punt is rolling on R's 16 when an inadvertent whistle sounds. R77 blocks K89 in the backon R's 22-yard line during the down prior to the whistle. Ruling:

[BayouUmp]

IW during loose ball play. Replay and enforce any penalites occuring prior to the IW. K's ball 4/2 @ R35

[ChickenOfNC]

Off top of head, I think IW's are ignored if there is an accepted penalty. If true, sounds like a PSK, enforce from end of kick. (I would say end of kick is the 16, so back em up to the 8)

[Edited by ChickenOfNC on Oct 5th, 2005 at 12:59 PM]

[MJT]

Originally posted by BayouUmp
IW during loose ball play. Replay and enforce any penalites occuring prior to the IW. K's ball 4/2 @ R35

Careful saying must replay if loose ball play. A loose ball play is also the run preceding a legal or illegal kick, legal pass, or fumble, and the team in possession would have some options here.

You are correct that in "this case" it must be replayed, but that is not the case for all loose ball plays

[MJT]

Originally posted by ChickenOfNC
Off top of head, I think IW's are ignored if there is an accepted penalty. If true, sounds like a PSK, enforce from end of kick. (I would say end of kick is the 16, so back em up to the 8)

[Edited by ChickenOfNC on Oct 5th, 2005 at 12:59 PM]

There was no end of kick, so this is not an option.

[ChickenOfNC]

Hey, I'm a new official. I like responding with my first instinct, just to see how far off base I am on these situations.

Preciate the feedback.

I assume the play was killed when the IW occurred. Wouldn't that spot (the 16) be the end of the kick? Seems that all the requirements of PSK are met here, right?

"If an inadvertant whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertant whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the IW is ignored"
4-2-3c

That's where my thinking came from.

[Edited by ChickenOfNC on Oct 5th, 2005 at 02:04 PM]

Originally posted by ChickenOfNC
Hey, I'm a new official. I like responding with my first instinct, just to see how far off base I am on these situations.

Preciate the feedback.

I assume the play was killed when the IW occurred. Wouldn't that spot (the 16) be the end of the kick? Seems that all the requirements of PSK are met here, right?

"If an inadvertant whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertant whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the IW is ignored"
4-2-3c

That's where my thinking came from.

I think it is good to go for what you have off the top of your head and see if you are right.

List what the requirments are for a PSK even if you have to look them up....

So, you know you have two opition...
1) if the penalty is accepted
2) if the penalty is declined
but what do you do for each one?




[Edited by tpaul on Oct 5th, 2005 at 02:37 PM]

[ChickenOfNC]

OK, here goes

1. Punt beyond ENZ,
2. Foul by R beyond NZ
3. During kick
4. K will not be the next to put ball in play

If penalty accepted, I go with my original thought, the IW is ignored and all the above PSK req. are met.

If declined, you have a IW on a loose ball play, rekick.

Originally posted by ChickenOfNC
OK, here goes

1. Punt beyond ENZ,
2. Foul by R beyond NZ
3. During kick
4. K will not be the next to put ball in play

If penalty accepted, I go with my original thought, the IW is ignored and all the above PSK req. are met.

If declined, you have a IW on a loose ball play, rekick.

I agree with if declined....

It does not meet the requirments of a PSK.
-------------------------------------------
g. Post-scrimmage kick - a foul by R when the foul occurs:

1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends and will not be next to put the ball in play.
------------------------------------------------------
So, now we know it doesn't meet the PSK rule, how do you enforce it?

[MJT]

Originally posted by ChickenOfNC
Hey, I'm a new official. I like responding with my first instinct, just to see how far off base I am on these situations.

Preciate the feedback.

I assume the play was killed when the IW occurred. Wouldn't that spot (the 16) be the end of the kick? Seems that all the requirements of PSK are met here, right?

"If an inadvertant whistle occurs during a down in which a foul occurs prior to the inadvertant whistle, and the penalty is accepted, the IW is ignored"
4-2-3c

That's where my thinking came from.

[Edited by ChickenOfNC on Oct 5th, 2005 at 02:04 PM]

In the NFL, they do not have IW rules like NF, so they go with the spot of the ball and it is dead, but in NF this would have to be rekicked.

I don't think PSK was met cuz K was still in team possession at the end of the down, the time of the IW.

posted by MJT


I don't think PSK was met cuz K was still in team possession at the end of the down, the time of the IW.

I agree PSK was not met...

[MJT]

Originally posted by tpaul

I agree with if declined....

It does not meet the requirments of a PSK.
-------------------------------------------
g. Post-scrimmage kick - a foul by R when the foul occurs:

1. During scrimmage kick plays, other than a try or successful field goal.
2. During a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the expanded neutral zone.
3. Beyond the expanded neutral zone.
4. Before the end of a kick.
5. And K does not have possession of the ball when the down ends and will not be next to put the ball in play.
------------------------------------------------------
So, now we know it doesn't meet the PSK rule, how do you enforce it?

The foul did occur before the end of the kick.

I think PSK is not met cuz K is still in team possession when the IW. This is not the same as K downing the ball, the ball was never possessed by either team, and when the IW occurs it is not the same as if no team was in possession of a ball that is at rest, therefore I think our only option is to rekick.

Originally posted by MJT

The foul did occur before the end of the kick.

I think PSK is not met cuz K is still in team possession when the IW. This is not the same as K downing the ball, the ball was never possessed by either team, and when the IW occurs it is not the same as if no team was in possession of a ball that is at rest, therefore I think our only option is to rekick.

Right R did not possess it. But what if the penalty is accepted? under NFHS rules the penalty over rules the IW.

[mcrowder]

Disclaimer - I'm an NCAA guy, and my entire knowledge of FED rules is from here.

However, I think you have reason and rule support (and logic) to support the idea of waiving off the IW in favor of the penalty. The rule says before the end of the kick - and the penalty did happen before the end of the kick, in the sense that when the penalty occurred, the kick was still ongoing. I don't think the fact that you have no official "end of kick" spot of the ball has any bearing.

As to K "having possession", while they may be the team "of offense" at the time of the IW, they certainly didn't have possession of the ball. Also, since you can't assume any action (such as a muff or fumble) after the IW, you can't assume that K would have the ball at the end of the play. In fact, logic would say that it would have been R's ball had the IW not occurred.

the interp I'm reading here seems to force the IW to negate the penalty - surely not the intent of the any of the rules I've read hear.

[ChickenOfNC]

Ok, i can see that element of psk is missing.

I can say this forum is very very helpful for a new guy. I think there is no better way to learn than going through these situations.