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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 07:32am
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K's ball 4th and seven at the K-45. K1 punts the ball high and short and it lands at the 50. The ball takes a backwards bounce and strikes R1 in the leg at the K-45 and K2 recovers the ball at the K-46.

Ruling?

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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 07:41am
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R did not touch the ball beyond the expanded neutral zone so K doesn't get a new series of downs due to R's touching. I have R's ball at K's 46.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 07:59am
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I disagree. The ENZ disappears once the ball has crossed this area we call the ENZ. On kick plays, this area is only used for touching of low scrimmage kicks.

K retains the ball, 1st and 10.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 11:44am
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Theisey, the rule book used to have the words "expanded neutral zone" in this ruling this this year it has disappeared. This wasn't a rule change, but rather an edit change but not noted. I wasn't sure which way the mistake was made. I have always understood it to be beyond the NZ because that's the book has always said. But, this year it has changed. As that why you disagree?

Or, are you saying that since the ENZ disappeared is why you disagree? I see your point either way.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 01:25pm
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5-1-3f. The ball belongs to the team in possession at the end of the down if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the ENZ, unless the penalty is accpeted for a non PSK...

5-1-4...If the kickers recover a scrimmage kick in or behind the NZ and has not been touched first by R beyond the NZ, the ball remains live and belongs to K and the down counts.

So in this scenario I say it's R's ball. The touching by R was not beyond the ENZ and K recovers beyond the NZ.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 01:32pm
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6.2.6 SITUATION: What is the reason for having an expanded neutral zone during scrimmage kicks and how does it affect the touching of a low kick in that area? RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow offensive linemen to block and drive defensive linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if no R player is in position to catch the ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it establishes a new series. (2-27-2; 5-1-2f; 6-5-6)

Based on the original play, the ENZ had disintegrated so the touching by R is not ignored if it did not occur in the neutral zone. K may recover and retain possession 1-10.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 01:33pm
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I know I read it somewhere that this ENZ disappears once a kick as gone beyond that 2 yard point.
I'll have to search tonight. Maybe it was in the case book but I'm sure I read it recently.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 02:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Warrenkicker
6.2.6 SITUATION: What is the reason for having an expanded neutral zone during scrimmage kicks and how does it affect the touching of a low kick in that area? RULING: The purpose of expanding the neutral zone during a scrimmage kick is to permit normal line play. The neutral zone is expanded up to a maximum of 2 yards behind the defensive line of scrimmage (beyond the neutral zone) to allow offensive linemen to block and drive defensive linemen off the line of scrimmage. Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched by players of K or R, and such touching is ignored if the kick has not been beyond the expanded neutral zone. The zone disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the expanded zone or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down. Once the zone disintegrates, touching of the kick by K in flight beyond the neutral zone is kick-catching interference if no R player is in position to catch the ball. If touched by R beyond the neutral zone, it establishes a new series. (2-27-2; 5-1-2f; 6-5-6)

Based on the original play, the ENZ had disintegrated so the touching by R is not ignored if it did not occur in the neutral zone. K may recover and retain possession 1-10.
There is no 5-1-2f. They must mean 5-1-3f, another Fed typo. Here's what the Handbook says:

Effect of Touching by a Receiver

During a scrimmage kick, any touching of a low kick by either team in or behind the expanded nexutral zone, is ignored as far as the right to recover or advance is concerned. When R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the ENZ, the act has the following effect.

1. K may recover and retain possession
2 - 9 talks about penalties, double fouls, forward pass infractions, first touching, etc.

It also talks about some Basic Principles, one of which is K can catch or recover a kick in or behind the neutral zone and advance. Also, the kickers can recover a kick beyond the NZ if it has been touched by R, but cannot advance.

Your quote of the casebook is accurate so it seems to me that there is a bit of a black hole both on the field and in the book and I say this because I'm not seeing where they say the neutral zone disintegrates once the ball passes over it out of the three rules they cited. The Handbook seems to support 5-1-3f and 5-1-4 but I don't see where the zone disintegrates based on the three rules cited in the Casebook.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 04:08pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by andy1033
The expanded zone does not disappear. It remains there till the kick ends for PSk fouls by r. If R's foul is in this zone it is not a psk foul.

[Edited by andy1033 on Oct 4th, 2005 at 04:47 PM]
I believe the expanded neutral zone disappears, but not the neutral zone once the kick crosses the expanded zone.

So in the orginal play, if R only touched the ball in or behind the original neutral zone, K would only get a new series if they advanced the ball beyond the line to gain.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 04:26pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Theisey
I disagree. The ENZ disappears once the ball has crossed this area we call the ENZ. On kick plays, this area is only used for touching of low scrimmage kicks.

K retains the ball, 1st and 10.
Damn. Another evening with the case/rule book!

Lemmesee...

4th and 7 at K's 45 when we have a scrimmage kick from K's 45 - which is grounded - when it lands beyond the ENZ at the 50yd line, bounces backwards and hit's R1 at the LOS (K's 45)... Then... The loose ball rolls forward 1 yard to K's 46 where K2 recovers.

On the surface I'm inclined to award K the ball (recovery) since it went beyond the ENZ and then was touched by R. Regardless of where R was positioned at the time. Right or wrong, that's my first impression. But I will read more on it later tonight at home.

My confusion stems from K needing to reach R's 48 as the LTG. Since we have a loose ball, possesion still remains with the last team in possesion. Since R didn't gain control of the ball to end the Kick (PSK), prior to K regaining possesion... How can K get a 1/10 if they did not attain the LTG which is at R's 48? K recovered on K's 46.

All of my muffed punt calls have been way downfield and when K regains the ball I figured the 1st and 10 for K came about since they were past their original LTG.

In the OP example, R never had possesion, K recovered a loose ball short of their LTG. Even by recovering the ball wouldn't they turn it over on downs since they can't advance the ball when recovered beyond the NZ?

Can someone elaborate for me?

WM
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 04:33pm
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Read 5-1-3f. A new series is awarded to: f. to whoever has possession at the end of the down if the ball was touched by R beyond the ENZ. It's not that K had the ball beyond the line to gain it's by rule they get a new series.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 04:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by schwinn
Read 5-1-3f. A new series is awarded to: f. to whoever has possession at the end of the down if the ball was touched by R beyond the ENZ. It's not that K had the ball beyond the line to gain it's by rule they get a new series.
That was "elaborate". Thanks.

I've been reading hard about the kicking/passing game since I'm doing a bit of BJing at times. It's amazing how a sentence or two from somewhere else can impact a different section.

I just looked up 5.1.3f and will never forget it. Just another reason to hang out here.

WM
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 06:23pm
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Per Case book 6.2.6 enz disintergrates immed when ball crosses enz.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 06:43pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by schwinn
Read 5-1-3f. A new series is awarded to: f. to whoever has possession at the end of the down if the ball was touched by R beyond the ENZ. It's not that K had the ball beyond the line to gain it's by rule they get a new series.
Okay, It does say that (casebook and rule mismatch), but in the original example....

K's ball 4th and seven at the K-45. K1 punts the ball high and short and it lands at the 50. The ball takes a backwards bounce and strikes R1 in the leg at the K-45 and K2 recovers the ball at the K-46.

So since R touched it at the original line of scrimmage, not beyond the line of scrimmage we don't have the conditions in 5-1-3f. So when K recovers at the K-46, I think that 6-2-4 is in force....

6-2-4 Any kicker may catch or recover a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone or expanded neutral zone, provided such kick has been touched by a receiver who was clearly beyond the neutral zone at the time of touching. Such touching is ignored if it it caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or it is caused by K legally batting or muffing the ball into R.

So, since the touching beyond the neutral zone did not occur and K recovered in the expanded neutral zone... K can try to advance it beyond the line to gain. If K does not get beyond the line to gain, it will be R's ball at that spot.

Had the ball hit R at the same spot and K touched it then at the 48, then that would be first touching... 6-2-5.
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Old Tue Oct 04, 2005, 08:07pm
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Ah, that's where I read it.. In the case book.

The ENZ is there for team-B one reason, to allow them to touch a low scrimmage kick and not have that act make the ball eligible for a recovery by team-A.

It disolves and becomes a non-factor once the kicked ball has gone past it.


The same principle applies for linemen on pass plays. The ENZ disolves once the pass has gone beyond just the NZ. If not, we would have tons of flags for linemen illegally being downfield until every pass was caught and the running play has started.
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