|
Wed Sep 28, 2005, 08:30pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Mr D.H. Long,
I'm going to post a play from the FRD manual. I manual I reference quite often since I go from Friday to Saturday and have to switch the brain to a different rules code. If you don't believe the result, then what can the rest of us say other than you are missing the NF point. Hit the books a little harder. You've had some excellent officials trying to point out the why's and wherefore's of this clock rule. the Play: 4th and 10 on the K-20. K2 is flagged for illegal motion as K1 punts. The ball is caught by R4 and he is tackled inbounds. Team-R accepts the penalty. NF Ruling: The clock is restarted on the RFP. Team-R cannot be awarded a first down until the penalty is addressed, therefore the only reason for stopping the clock was the penalty. NCAA Ruling: on the snap. Notice the reason... it's been stated more than once in this thread of posts. 
|
|
Wed Sep 28, 2005, 09:08pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
I think everyone is making this too difficult. First of all the clock stopped because the down ended following a foul. I think everyone will agree that a foul occurred during the down as stated in the description. Once the clock is stopped and the next play is not a free kick, it starts on the snap if any of the following caused or occurred subsequent to the clock being stopped. 1) a period ends, 2) a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted, 3) a score or touchback occurs, 4) a legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete, 5) the ball goes out of bounds, 6) AN OFFICIAL'S TIME-OUT IS TAKEN TO AWARD TEAM B A NEW SERIES, OR TO AWARD EITHER TEAM A NEW SERIES AFTER A LEGAL KICK, 7) a team attempts to consume time illegally, 8) a penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.
IN ALL OTHER CASES, THE CLOCK STARTS WITH THE READY-FOR-PLAY SIGNAL. Here is an example: On fourth down, Team K punts and is flagged for holding as the kick is made. The ball is caught by R2 who is tackled inbounds. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the clock will start on the ready since it was stopped for the penalty and there is no major clock stopper. If the penalty is declined, the clock will start on the snap, since a new series is awarded to Team B. Two points to remember: (1) a change of possession does not dictate when the clock starts (it's which team is awarded a new series after the change of possession that matters) and (2) Teams A and B retain their designation throughout the down. The game clock starts on the snap whenever either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick down (3-4-3c); however, a new series is not awarded to either team until all acts which occurred during the down, including penalties for other than non-player or unsportsmanlike fouls, are considered. (5-1-2b)
__________________
"I love it when they boo!"
|
|
Wed Sep 28, 2005, 09:23pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
LOL! This the longest thread I've ever started!
 The sad thing is that the ruling shouldn't be that difficult. 
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
|
|
Wed Sep 28, 2005, 09:31pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Let's say you all were the BJ. You saw R touch the scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and you saw K recover the kick.
You did not see the L throw his flag. 1. As BJ are you going to stop the clock? YES or NO 2. Why or why not?
|
|
Wed Sep 28, 2005, 09:38pm
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The difficult part we are have is agreeing on what caused the clock to stop. The foul? (I say no) or the recovery of the scrimmage kick? ( which I say both ended the down AND stopped the clock).
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 06:46am
|
|||
|
|||
|
These kinds of plays have been floating around the various forums. In THIS play, K recovering a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone is action that causes the down to end. It is also action that causes the clock to stop.
I have been think all along that the play was the same as the one from the FRD where an R player is tackled inbounds after the kick. I agree with Daryl on this one. Because the action that caused the down to end (K recovering a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone) also cause the clock to stop (an official's timeout), the clock starts for the next play on the snap. Did someone change the contents of the play or have I been so dense that I didn't read it? 
__________________
Mike Sears
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 07:49am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Daryl and Mike - I can't see why this is hard. It's nearly identical to the caseplay posted above that tells you to start it on the RFP. AND, people have posted, several times, the rules that tell you when to start the clock on the snap, and this sitch doesn't fit. Daryl continues to go back to the reason the clock was stopped - 99% of the time, the same reason you would be using to determine whether the clock starts on the RFP or snap... but NOT in this case.
Please, Daryl - if you insist you are still right, give us the actual quote from the rulebook that supports your assertion. Plenty of people have quoted the rulebook that supports the other side of this coin.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 08:32am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
If either team is awarded a first down (the chains are reset and a new line to gain is established), then the clock will restart when the ball is snapped. If neither team is awarded a first down (the line to gain remains the same) because of a foul, then the clock would be restarted on the ready if the kick did not go out of bounds, or the clock did not stop because of an incomplete pass (legal or illegal), fair catch, or touchback or score. Look through the entire list of things that stop the clock. Rule 3.4.4 a through i. and Rule 3.5.7. (officials time-outs) a. through m. The one that applies when there is no penalty and K recovers a muffed kick beyond the line is 3.5.7. b. "When a first down is declared" since there was no change of team possession. If R recovers and is downed, then 3.5.7 c. "Following a change of team possession" and 3.5.7. b. 3.5.9 comes into play too. With a foul then it is 3.5.7. j. These are all "official's timeouts". Notice that you don't see recovery of a legal kick beyond the line in any of them. Okay, we have administered the penalty.... Did a new line to gain get established for either team? Yes... then we start the clock on the snap. No... K has retained possession and the line to gain remains the same and we are replaying the down. Then the clock would start on the ready for play. Then looking at 3.4.2 a. The clock shall start with the ready-for-play signal for other than a free kick if the clock was stopped: a) For an official's time-out; other tha when B is awarded a new series or either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick. (If the line to gain is re-established, then we don't start the clock until the ball is snapped, if the line to gain remains the same then we start on the ready.)
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 09:28am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Yes, the clock was stopped because there was a flag. There's no disputing that. Now, what determines when the clock restarts is what happens next. If the penalty is declined, then the clock starts on the snap because A NEW SERIES HAS BEEN AWARDED. If the penalty is accepted, then the clock starts on the ready because a NEW SERIES HAS NOT BEEN AWARDED. It's doesn't get anymore more simple than that. You guys are too focused on why the clock stopped. Read the rule on when the clock starts. That's what you should be focusing on. The clock doesn't start on the snap unless A NEW SERIES HAS BEEN AWARDED. [Edited by BktBallRef on Sep 29th, 2005 at 10:31 AM]
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott "You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 09:41am
|
|||
|
|||
A rookies' 2 cents
I read "Referee" from October, and on page 21, Rogers Redding explained "If administering a penalty is one of the reasons for stopping the clock, remember the two iron-clad principles for starting it again: the clock should start as it would have if there had been no foul and the clock starts on the snap if the ball will next belong to team B no matter why it was stopped. The second reason trumps the first."
Correct a dumb rookie if I'm wrong, but aren't we killing the clock on each and every 4th down play, due to the fact that either A, or B is getting a new series? If I am to take Redding's words as gospel, and consider why the clock was stopped as if there was no foul in the original situation (stated 6 pages ago :4th and 10, and R muffs punt, with K recovering), after K regained possession of the muff, was it in advance of the line to gain? If not, R would take over on downs, and the clock would start on the snap. If the recovered muff IS in advance of the LTG, then K is awarded a new series, chains move, and clock starts on RFP. Sorry to add to this convoluted discussion, but I need clarification. J
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 09:51am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
If you're hanging your hat on action causing the down to end also stops the clock then what are those actions? 3-4-4 says those actions are: a. down ends following a foul (here) b. An official's TO (here, for the foul) c. B awarded new series (not here) d. Period ends (not here) e. Out of bounds (not here, recovered inbounds) f. legal or illegal fwd pass incomplete (not here) g. score or touchback (not here) h. fair catch (not here) i. an IW (not here) Further 3-4-3 says the clock starts on the snap if the clock was stopped for: a. ball OB (not here) b. B gets a new series (not here) c. Either team gets a new series following a legal kick (not here) d. dead behind the goalling (not here) e. incomplete pass (not here) f. TO (not here) g. period ends (not here) h. illegal time consumption (not here) i. delay of game (not here) So, the only items which have occurred here are 3-4-4-a. and b. which means you go back to 3-4-2 as I outlined above. Start on the ready because it was an official's TO to administer the penalty. Sorry if this is a repeat but this has been bugging me some aren't getting it. [Edited by schwinn on Sep 29th, 2005 at 10:58 AM]
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 10:26am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Re: Another question
Quote:
Yes, we do stop the clock after every fourth down play by A or K. The question is when does the clock restart. If after a legal scrimmage kick either team is awarded a new series, then the clock would start on the snap. The question here is after a legal scrimmage kick, when does the clock start if the down is replayed and K is not awarded a new series of downs. In this case because a foul for illegal procedure by K is accepted.
|
|
Thu Sep 29, 2005, 10:43am
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
other live ball foul by K. Good thing I don't have a mike, I might use the wrong words from many years of calling it illegal procedure when using signal 19. 
|
 |
| Bookmarks |
|
|
Linear Mode
