Youth Football Coach's rules ignorance

[whitecane]

Ok, I admit it, I'm a rat coach with insufficient knowledge of the rules. That being said, I come to you all for enlightenment.

In my youth team's game today (played under FED rules) on 4th down and 2, our opponent managed to squeak out 78 yards [Edit: okay maybe it was only 60] for a touchdown, due mainly, I'm sure, to my coaching abilities. Certainly not due to the officials, let me make that clear. We were however, fortunate in that one of my players received a cheap shot in the back (no worries, he was able to walk again by dinnertime) around midfield, flagged by two officials, negating the touchdown, thereby saving our collective bacons.

However, we coaches were flummoxed to discover that 4th down was not being repeated, but they had awarded first down to the offense. Since marking from the spot of the foul would NOT have been 1st down yardage, I asked Mr.Referee if, perchance, he might have made an error. He then made a statement most amazing to me, he said "No, since the runner had already achieved first down yardage when the penalty occurred, it's a first down."

I, being a clever coach, asked if perchance this was a new rule that just applied to youth leagues, and was told no, it applied to every level of football and always had.

Now I know two things for sure; 1) Anytime an official is this confident in his ruling, and I've checked on the rule, he's been right and I've been wrong. 2)However,I've watched a lot of football at all levels and never seen/noticed this ruling but occasionally there's beer involved.

So I went on an on-line rules search and came up almost blank. Complete football rulebooks are hard to find online. The only rule I found close to this topic was in the official CFL book on-line which states in Section 2 Article 1:

"Should any foul be committed on a play from scrimmage after the yardage necessary for a first down has been gained the penalty shall be applied from the point where the ball was held when the foul occurred."

My question to you is, IS THIS A RULE IN OUR GAME? Is there anything like this? Have I been that unconscious all these years? Or are these Canadians really leading the way in cutting edge football methodologies?

Please, help me out, a coach's night's sleep hangs in the balance.

thanks.

[Edited by whitecane on Sep 19th, 2005 at 03:07 AM]

[BulldogMcC]

Fed rules:

For argument's sake I will make some assumptions since your post did not have the down/distance with the spot of the foul in it. You opponent is 4th & 2 from their own 22 yard line. The foul was for block in the back and was behind the 34 yard line so lets just use the 30 for the example. In that case, by rule, the live ball foul should have been enforced from the spot of the foul since it is behind the basic spot which was the goal line and after you accept the penalty, they should have been left with 4th and 4 from their own 20. 10 yard penalty from the 30. Rule 5-1-2b After a fourth down, a new series of downs shall be awarded only after considering the effect of any act during the down. (This means a live ball foul) The block in the back is a live ball play, so we take its yardage into account when we determine if a new series shall be awarded, so it is the spot of the ball after enforcment that must be beyond the line to gain, in your case the 24, for the awarding of a first down (5-1-3a) When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to A, if the ball belongs to A on or beyond the line to gain.. The fact that the runner was already past the 24 prior to the penalty occuring has no bearing on whether a new series is awarded (aka gained a first down), only the position of the ball after enforcement of the penalty. If the spot after enforcement was behind your opponent's 24, the official calling it punted the ruling.

[Edit: But a 'midfield' block in the back, sounds more like a penalty between the 40's not back behind the 34.]

[Edited by BulldogMcC on Sep 19th, 2005 at 02:49 AM]

[whitecane]

BulldogMcC,

thanks for an exceptionally clear response. That makes me feel less crazy. And for what it's worth, my description of the block in the back being "midfield" was accurate, it was when I called the play a 78 yard touchdown that I was inadvertantly exaggerating. It just felt like 78 yards to us coaches defending a 4th and 2 :-). My guess is LOS was their own 40.

thanks again for your help. I'm off to sleep peacefully.

[BulldogMcC]

I didn't include all the rules in 5-2 "Down and Possession after penalty" because the basics hold the answer, the first down is awarded on 4th down if, after a live ball penalty enforcement against A, A is left in possession beyond the line to gain. If you are interested though, that is the rule set where you get to repeat the down unless a penalty includes a loss of down, automatic first down or the enforcement or advance on the play results in a first down by yardage.


[Edited by BulldogMcC on Sep 19th, 2005 at 03:16 AM]

[Dommer1]

Very good question, whitecane, and nicely put too.

Not that it really concerns you as you don't play by these rules, but since you commented on that on-line rulebooks are hard to find, here's a link to the NCAA rules. It's the complete rulebook:
http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/20...ball_rules.pdf